Salvation for Non-Catholics - Page 8

rinnie · #**106** May 15, '12, 6:07 am

[quote=1voice;9294927]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags"

Isaiah 64:6

Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
Job 14:4

This was in the O.T. before Jesus came and we became free by our Baptism from original sin.

Jesus told us he would be sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is who leads us and leads the Church.

John 14:12 In all I tell you whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself and will perform even GREATER works, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask for in my name I WILL DO so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jesus tells us the prince of this world is on his way, He has no power over Jesus. Nor does he have any power over us, if we choose to do the work of Christ.

You are correct that no one can bring what is pure from the inpure. But Christ was pure and it brought to us the pure, he has given us the Church, He has given us the mystery in the Church where we can become pure once again with him. Through his Church we have the Sacraments, We have the Priest who can as Christ said do great things.

The Greatest of all is to give us absolution from our sins, that we can become pure and good once again in the eyes of God.

rinnie · #**107** May 15, '12, 6:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

well, the main reason that i don't accept jesus is that i don't believe in the supernatural. so ghosts and fairies and all other mythology are just that to me.

now, if christians, specifically catholics,were right all along, then i'm supposed to die and float up, figuratively, to be judged, literally, i guess by saint peter, but really it could be anything, even a dragon, "because anything is possible with the Mercy of God."

but my point is that i'm honestly not close-minded. if santa claus came down my chimney on chirstmas, i would immediately start "believing" in flying reindeer and his naughty/nice list and all the rest of it. just like if i get to the afterlife, it would be irrefutable that an afterlife exists, and i would probably be much more responsive to the christian message. but it won't, so i don't.

i don't think that the existence of the universe PROVES that your god exists. it could just as easily be "proven" that any other god created the universe. it could have been a giant hippo god. but i think that it is much simpler to believe that there are no gods, and no miracles, and that's actually what my religion teaches, so you kind of have to respect that as per the forum's rules;p

so but if you are right, and your god made me, why did he make me an atheist? why didn't he give me the tools to turn off the part of brain that stops me from believing in the impossible? why did your cruel god damn me to hell by making me this way?

thanks for answering, these are still real questions;p

Why would you say, to begin with my God made you an atheist? How could he give you free will but then take that away from you and make you something that you have to agree you choose to be.

Do you want God? Do you want to believe? Do you want to have him in your life here and in the next world? See God said that you have that choice.

Tell me do you believe that you have the free will to believe and accept anything you want? If you agree that this is true, how could God make you an atheist?

We gain many gifts at our Baptism. Were you Baptised? If you were at that time you would have been given grace.

But it takes more then Grace. All God's Grace does is give us the tools to get the Job done. But what good is tools without someone to get the job done. If I give you the Grace by giving you the education, the tools, the materials and all that can be provided for you, to get the Job done, Do you not have to work and use the tools, the education, and the materials. Or do you think that should magically get done by itself?

If this were true, why would I supply you all you need to get the job done then? Would that not be silly if you were not given the choice to do the job?

Isaiah45_9 · #**108** May 15, '12, 9:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns.

Cool! You are not supposed to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can't do it.

Don't need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

and that's how i feel when i try to believe in god.

And how do you know God is not the one making you feel that way? Or the unicorns?

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

i'm not saying that i'm right,

Yes you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system.

Yes you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

i'm not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly.

You just did. If not, please explain the concept of indirect comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

it's just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i'm not going to "believe" in unicorns;p

Why a rainbow?
And, btw, you just made someone try to breed a one horned bull with a horse just to prove you wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

and i don't think that just because the universe exists,

How do you know the universe exists and it's not just a figment of your imagination?

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

that there must then be a god that created it.

Perhaps you can logically and scientifically explain the concept of Motion.

Peace

1voice · #**109** May 15, '12, 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

anyhow, a lot of posts seem to contradict each other. i can't even tell if an atheist could go to heaven if they have lived an ethical life?

apparently, some parts of the bible say that it is possible, while other parts state explicitly that only through jesus, or even more specifically through the catholic church, can a person go to heaven. and the other major consensus that i keep seeing is that it doesn't really matter what people think, because only the christian god knows.

am i getting all of this correctly?

the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns. try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can't do it. and that's how i feel when i try to believe in god.

i'm not saying that i'm right, or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system. i'm not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly. it's just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i'm not going to "believe" in unicorns;p and i don't think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.

I used this logic... and it worked. I said, if there is a God... as described in the Bible, that is all powerful and truly does treat all fairly ... then He has the power to show me personally ... that He is real. I simply asked (if ... on the chance that he existed) him to do that in a way that is impossible to deny.

For my part... I fasted as described in the Bible (it enhances spiritual awareness) and made my request known ... I was determined ...and did not give up.
I got my answer. Therefore, my faith in God has nothing to do with Religion or force fed words. I know for a fact that God exists. You have the same access that I have... if you exercise it. What I have found is that most people with your mind set just dont care to really find out for themselves. Believe me... no one can do it for you.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**110** May 15, '12, 9:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice

I used this logic... and it worked. I said, if there is a God... as described in the Bible, that is all powerful and truly does treat all fairly ... then He has the power to show me personally ... that He is real. I simply asked (if ... on the chance that he existed) him to do that in a way that is impossible to deny.

For my part... I fasted as described in the Bible (it enhances spiritual awareness) and made my request known ... I was determined ...and did not give up.
I got my answer. Therefore, my faith in God has nothing to do with Religion or force fed words. I know for a fact that God exists. You have the same access that I have... if you exercise it. What I have found is that most people with your mind set just dont care to really find out for themselves. Believe me... no one can do it for you.

I will say putting God to the test in this manner is dubious and specifically warned against in scripture.

rinnie · #**111** May 15, '12, 10:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice

I used this logic... and it worked. I said, if there is a God... as described in the Bible, that is all powerful and truly does treat all fairly ... then He has the power to show me personally ... that He is real. I simply asked (if ... on the chance that he existed) him to do that in a way that is impossible to deny.

For my part... I fasted as described in the Bible (it enhances spiritual awareness) and made my request known ... I was determined ...and did not give up.
I got my answer. Therefore, my faith in God has nothing to do with Religion or force fed words. I know for a fact that God exists. You have the same access that I have... if you exercise it. What I have found is that most people with your mind set just dont care to really find out for themselves. Believe me... no one can do it for you.

So then you are saying that if a person did what you did, and still could not be sure, Then what

Just because God has the power to do something does not mean he will. Who know's the mind of God?

I do not think this is good advice.

I believe that if a person wants God to enter their life, All they have do is ask, and pray and let God answer the prayer when and how he chooses.

1voice · #**112** May 15, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie

So then you are saying that if a person did what you did, and still could not be sure, Then what

Just because God has the power to do something does not mean he will. Who know's the mind of God?

I do not think this is good advice.

I believe that if a person wants God to enter their life, All they have do is ask, and pray and let God answer the prayer when and how he chooses.

This is the mind of God...
God/ Jesus is very direct. It says specifically and clearly... that "It is not God's will that any should perish.

Jesus said ... If you ask for a loaf of bread... will God give you a stone? a snake?
Jesus came specifically to seek and save the lost.
Jesus didnt say "I am the way and then say ... nope ... sorry ... not for that one.
He made an open invitation to all who will respond...
Jesus said... Come to me all of you ... and I will give you rest.
Jesus said ... If you listen to my words and obey them ... then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free

Jesus died a horrible death for sinners! You really believe he is going to let one go ... that honestly asks for help?
What kind of belief is that?

z0wb13 · #**113** May 15, '12, 9:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie

Tell me do you believe that you have the free will to believe and accept anything you want? If you agree that this is true, how could God make you an atheist?

idk, how your god could make me an atheist. thats your riddle. im not concerned.

the difference between what you believe and reality is that if you stop "believing" in gravity, you don't float out of your chair. i believe, now i don't. i can not detect a difference.

Quote:

Were you Baptised?

no.

Quote:

But it takes more then Grace. All God's Grace does is give us the tools to get the Job done. But what good is tools without someone to get the job done. If I give you the Grace by giving you the education, the tools, the materials and all that can be provided for you, to get the Job done, Do you not have to work and use the tools, the education, and the materials. Or do you think that should magically get done by itself?

i don't really follow you, but no, i don't think that you must do what your parents say. they might be idiots. the gods could be fools.

my religion doesn't really see it this way. there was a taoist. he was walking down a street, in feudal times, and a man runs up to him.

"hey. there is a horse going crazy. HEY! IT'S GONE CRAZY!!!" the man is beside himself. "it kicked its owner in the face!" the man points down a street, where a crowd has gathered. there is shouting.

the taoist watches the throng, smiles, and keeps walking.

@Isaiah45_9: don't put words into my mouth. i never said anybody was ridiculous. but i can't force myself to believe in ghost, goblins or gods.

@1voice: i have and do fast. it sharpens the senses. it makes me hyper-vigilant, and i think it is a throw back to when we, as a species, were hungry. all i can think about is killing something and eating it. i never saw any gods, but i think it's something everyone should try.

1voice · #**114** May 15, '12, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

@1voice: i have and do fast. it sharpens the senses. it makes me hyper-vigilant, and i think it is a throw back to when we, as a species, were hungry. all i can think about is killing something and eating it. i never saw any gods, but i think it's something everyone should try.

You missed the point.
Fasting is only a tool.
It can be used in many ways... Just like a hammer.
The human body demands attention ... Therefore it ... demands attention...

ie ... thoughts of food are pretty normal.
The key to using the tool is the focus of the mind and heart. Jesus was a very wise man. Jesus told his disciples that incredible spiritual power could be attained through fasting and prayer.
The next time you fast... focus your mind on the name of Jesus Christ and ask him to reveal himself. Speak these words: If you are real... and you are the one true God... show me in a way that I cannot deny. Prove that you are not a myth or just one among many ideas in the the world... The Bible states that God is love... If you truly are love and you love me... show me.
You can do the same thing without fasting. Fasting just intensifies the focus.
The key is persistence (that is, time) and focus... dont give up in a day or two or three... Persistence is an expression of faith ... The Bible states that faith is the only thing that pleases God ... and gets his attention. But if you truly, honestly search with your being ... you will find.

I and others that I know have done what I describe ... The results are amazing.

Isaiah45_9 · #**115** May 16, '12, 5:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns. try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can't do it. and that's how i feel when i try to believe in god.

Zombie, I don't need to put words in your "mouth" (Should really read post

)

When you look at your post,

1) You can't physically and emphatically can't believe:
a) In any Gods
i) any better than
A) Anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns.

Please explain the logic (if any) of your statement and how it relates to God.

You have just violated the 1st law of logic: Law of Identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0wb13

i'm not saying that i'm right, or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system. i'm not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly. it's just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i'm not going to "believe" in unicorns;p and i don't think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.

You then said, after comparing Gods to unicorns:

1) I'm not saying that I'm right.
or
2) I think that anyone has a ridiculous belief system.

When you just compared religious belief in God with believing in unicorns.

You then said:
1) I'm not comparing Christianity to unicorns, directly.

When in the previous paragraph you just compared believing in unicorns with believing in God.

You have just violated a second law of logic: Law of (Non) Contradiction.

It would be impossible for you to reach any conclusions regarding your last statement:

Quote:

i don't think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.

With your faulty logic.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your answers on my original questions.

Chaim · #**116** May 16, '12, 5:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristin234

I wrote a response to you saying God made you an atheist earlier. Did you read it? I'm not going to type it up again because it is on the same thread but God did not make you "spiritually unfit"

God made as all the same and under his wings we all are one. God cant make someone
"spiritually unfit" while others "fit".

**JharekCarnelian** · #**117** May 16, '12, 5:59 am

1Voice:-

Quote:

The next time you fast... focus your mind on the name of Jesus Christ and ask him to reveal himself. Speak these words: If you are real... and you are the one true God... show me in a way that I cannot deny. Prove that you are not a myth or just one among many ideas in the the world...

This is very spiritually dangerous advice and in fact I would say it is more dangerous than the outlook of z0wb as 1voice is attempting to put God to the test here in a very, very dubious manner.

rinnie · #**118** May 16, '12, 6:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice

You missed the point.
Fasting is only a tool.
It can be used in many ways... Just like a hammer.
The human body demands attention ... Therefore it ... demands attention...

ie ... thoughts of food are pretty normal.
The key to using the tool is the focus of the mind and heart. Jesus was a very wise man. Jesus told his disciples that incredible spiritual power could be attained through fasting and prayer.
The next time you fast... focus your mind on the name of Jesus Christ and ask him to reveal himself. Speak these words: If you are real... and you are the one true God... show me in a way that I cannot deny. Prove that you are not a myth or just one among many ideas in the the world... The Bible states that God is love... If you truly are love and you love me... show me.
You can do the same thing without fasting. Fasting just intensifies the focus.
The key is persistence (that is, time) and focus... dont give up in a day or two or three... Persistence is an expression of faith ... The Bible states that faith is the only thing that pleases God ... and gets his attention. But if you truly, honestly search with your being ... you will find.

I and others that I know have done what I describe ... The results are amazing.

You are again making demands on God. You are saying if you are real how me.

Isaiah 7:12 But Ahaz said I will not ask, and I will NOT put the Lord God to the test.

Deut. 6:16 You Shall NOT put your Lord God to the test.

We do not have faith by putting the Lord to a test to prove or show us anything. That is not what faith is.

We get Grace from God and from that grace we gain faith, and through that faith we grow and Love God and one another.

God knows a heart, and anyone who truly wants God and seeks him will find him. But in ways only known to God.

God does not give in to demands or show signs. God does not play that game.

The devil tried that on him, He said if you are God turn the stone into bread. Matt 4:1

WE do not tell God what we need, God knows what we need.

If someone truly wants God in their life God will find his own way to reveal himself to them. But God is not to be tested in the ways of man.

I do not disagree with you saying to pray and ask God give someone grace in able to have faith to believe.

I disagree how you say if you are real show me a way I cannot deny. God does not play those games.

Our faith is not built on ways of God showing us things we cannot deny. Faith is believing in the unseen, Faith is knowing that God is with you and will be with you no matter what comes your way.

rinnie · #**119** May 16, '12, 6:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

1Voice:-

This is very spiritually dangerous advice and in fact I would say it is more dangerous than the outlook of z0wb as 1voice is attempting to put God to the test here in a very, very dubious manner.

I totally agree. Who are we to make demands on God.

rinnie · #**120** May 16, '12, 6:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaim

God made as all the same and under his wings we all are one. God cant make someone
"spiritually unfit" while others "fit".

I agree God cannot but we can. We all have free will to either accept God and pray for his grace, or reject God and reject the Grace we are given.

God made us all equal. God made Judas the same as he made Peter. They both betrayed God.

But Judas did not have the faith to believe that he could be forgiven, he became hopeless and took his own life.

Peter had faith, and was not hopeless and repented and cried. He had faith that God would forgive him.

We all have free will to accept God in our hearts and welcome him, or deny him and reject him in our hearts. Its our call.

The devil rejects God and his love. It was his own free will to sin and separate himself from God.