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  #1  
Old May 7, '12, 8:29 am
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Default OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

I once asked a Protestant whom I know is well-versed in scripture & Bible study why the King James version doesn't have all the books of the Catholic canon (I didn't put it that way exactly). He had posted something on facebook about the anniversary of the KJV (which is next yr), and he said that "my faith is not affected by which books are in the OT" or something close to that.

I wanted to offer a response, but was a bit stymied by that. Wouldn't you want to know that you had the whole, authenticated version of the Bible??

What would you say to someone like that?

Thanks in advance for replies!

Mimi
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Old May 7, '12, 8:49 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

Which book in the Catholic canon affect the salvation of a person? What "saving knowledge" is contained in them not found anywhere else?
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Old May 7, '12, 9:02 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Which book in the Catholic canon affect the salvation of a person? What "saving knowledge" is contained in them not found anywhere else?
All of them. The knowledge contained therein is the complete revelation of a loving God who sent his only Son so that those who believe in Him may not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16).

The Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith, guided by the Holy Spirit. If she determined that a book belongs in the canon, then it is the will of God that His Word be revealed to us in this manner.

If you want to talk about books unique to the Catholic canon, let's take 2 Maccabees and prayer for the dead. Heretics reject prayer for the dead as unbiblical, but in order for them to do that, they also must reject the true Canon of Holy Scripture.

Let's take the book of James in the New Testament. Heretics wanted to remove this book from the true Canon as well, because it proved that sola fide is a false doctrine. However, they did not get their way. In fact, Romans 3:28 was modified to insert the word "ALONE" after "faith" to change the meaning, contravening the warning in Revelation 22:18. The clear meaning of the letter to James, as well as the correct translation of Romans, reveals the true faith.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:07 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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All of them. The knowledge contained therein is the complete revelation of a loving God who sent his only Son so that those who believe in Him may not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16).
Please provide an example of a teaching in the Deut. that imparts "salvic knowledge" that is not found in other passages.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:08 am
ahollars ahollars is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

~ 2 Maccabees 12:38-46~
This is the part that gets Protestants worked up when talking to Catholics. This is one of the proofs of the existence of purgatory. While this is only one example, it is the most debated explanation as to why these books were not included in the KJV.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:08 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Please provide an example of a teaching in the Deut. that imparts "salvic knowledge" that is not found in other passages.
Please read my edited post.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:14 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Please read my edited post.
I can agree that trusting in the "Only Begotten" imparts temporal as well as spiritiual salvation...but from my readings of the Dueterocanonicals....no "salvic knowledge" unique to them is present...to me that is like saying that those books in the Orthodox canon contain "salvic knowledge"...and both Protestant and Catholics don't typically use them....I guess I'm not understanding your answer as it specifically relates to the Catholic OT canon.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:15 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Originally Posted by ahollars View Post
This is the part that gets Protestants worked up when talking to Catholics. This is one of the proofs of the existence of purgatory. While this is only one example, it is the most debated explanation as to why these books were not included in the KJV.
While not "proof" of purgatory.....at least not "proof" enough that cannot be inferred in the editions of scripture we ALL hold in common.....it still has no bearing on one's faith walk and salvation....believing in purgatory doesn't impart "salvic knowledge".
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  #9  
Old May 7, '12, 9:18 am
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

The Orthodox have several books that we lack. There are many canons out there. The Protestant canon is rather minimalist but adequate for demonstrating the Catholic faith.

For the record, the KJV originally included the deuterocanonicals. They were only removed in the 19th century when the English government refused to subsidize the publishing costs of bibles that included them. So you could point out that his edition is only a couple hundred years old (that is, if you don't want to bring up the 1609 D-R).
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Old May 7, '12, 9:24 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

We are not Gnostics. It is not knowledge that will save us. There is no "revealed knowledge" that can send us straight to heaven when we know it. It is faith in Jesus Christ and baptism into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that saves souls.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:27 am
ahollars ahollars is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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While not "proof" of purgatory.....at least not "proof" enough that cannot be inferred in the editions of scripture we ALL hold in common.....it still has no bearing on one's faith walk and salvation....believing in purgatory doesn't impart "salvic knowledge".
I respectfully disagree.

Our belief in purgatory stems from our acceptance that the standard to get into heaven is very high. Jesus himself calls us to perfection (Matthew 5:48), and nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Because of that, very few of us are ready to see the face of God when we die, and the vast majority of us will have sins that we have not completely atoned for. This is directly related to our savlation, as we know it.
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Old May 7, '12, 9:47 am
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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I respectfully disagree.

Our belief in purgatory stems from our acceptance that the standard to get into heaven is very high. Jesus himself calls us to perfection (Matthew 5:48), and nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Because of that, very few of us are ready to see the face of God when we die, and the vast majority of us will have sins that we have not completely atoned for. This is directly related to our savlation, as we know it.
Jesus is the "standard".....belief in purgatory in now way changes that.....one can reject purgatory completely and not have it compromise how they live in the Lord in any way. I do not believe in purgatory as a place....or condition....it is the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ that makes us fit and holy to enter into His Presence...if you wish to define that as "purgatory'...great...but my lack of intellectual ascent to such a place or situation in no way affects my standing with God in Christ.

Which "version" of the OT one ascribes to...Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant has no bearing on salvation. God doesn't judge based on what OT books one accepts as canon or not.
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Old May 7, '12, 10:41 am
Dave Noonan Dave Noonan is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi View Post
I once asked a Protestant whom I know is well-versed in scripture & Bible study why the King James version doesn't have all the books of the Catholic canon (I didn't put it that way exactly). He had posted something on facebook about the anniversary of the KJV (which is next yr), and he said that "my faith is not affected by which books are in the OT" or something close to that.

I wanted to offer a response, but was a bit stymied by that. Wouldn't you want to know that you had the whole, authenticated version of the Bible??

What would you say to someone like that?

Thanks in advance for replies!

Mimi
I think at least some Protestants would say that much of the Old Testament is not all that relevant to salvation—and moreover that Christians worship Christ—that it's not so much a religion of "the book" as, say, might be true of Islam.

And because diversity in the biblical canon of the OT has always been part of the tradition of the Church, your friend probably would argue (if he's familiar with the history of the Bible, which you sort of imply) that it's not possible to know "that you [have] the whole authenticated version of the Bible," except those books from the OT which all Christians have held in common.
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Old May 7, '12, 12:04 pm
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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I think at least some Protestants would say that much of the Old Testament is not all that relevant to salvation
That's unfortunate. The OT is the context in which Christ came to save us. The early Church had no NT, only the OT, and thrived. Based on that, I would speculate that the OT is the more relevant scripture.

Quote:
and moreover that Christians worship Christ—that it's not so much a religion of "the book" as, say, might be true of Islam.
Someone should tell the Fundamentalists. Some of them seem to put more emphasis on "the book" than they accuse Catholics of putting on the Saints.

Quote:
And because diversity in the biblical canon of the OT has always been part of the tradition of the Church, your friend probably would argue (if he's familiar with the history of the Bible, which you sort of imply) that it's not possible to know "that you [have] the whole authenticated version of the Bible," except those books from the OT which all Christians have held in common.
While there has always been some diversity in the canon of the OT, all apostolic churches include some common books of the deuterocanon (Tobit, Judith, the additions to Esther, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and the additions to Daniel). The Protestants were the first Christians ever to exclude these. source
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Old May 7, '12, 12:26 pm
Dave Noonan Dave Noonan is offline
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Default Re: OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant

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Originally Posted by SonCatcher View Post
That's unfortunate. The OT is the context in which Christ came to save us. The early Church had no NT, only the OT, and thrived. Based on that, I would speculate that the OT is the more relevant scripture.
Yes you can certainly debate whether that's good or bad. But this seems to be where the OPer is coming from.


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Originally Posted by SonCatcher View Post
Someone should tell the Fundamentalists. Some of them seem to put more emphasis on "the book" than they accuse Catholics of putting on the Saints.
True, though it doesn't sound like the OPer is dealing with a Fundamentalist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SonCatcher View Post
While there has always been some diversity in the canon of the OT, all apostolic churches include some common books of the deuterocanon (Tobit, Judith, the additions to Esther, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and the additions to Daniel). The Protestants were the first Christians ever to exclude these. source
Very true. But some Protestants would point to fact of historic diversity in the biblical canon as a sign that the canon itself is flexible, which may be where the person is coming from. It's difficult to tell without more info.
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