OT canon version: does not affect my faith says Protestant - Page 2

Non sum dignus · #16 May 7, '12, 1:19 pm

This illustrates the problem when individuals (inside or outside of the Church--we Catholics are certainly not immune) decide to be their own Magisterium and Holy See.

**po18guy** · #17 May 7, '12, 1:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

Please provide an example of a teaching in the Deut. that imparts "salvic knowledge" that is not found in other passages.

What exactly saves us? Do you know what questions or examination you are placed under in the judgment seat? What is the greatest of the theological virtues?

You are clearly comfortable with what you believe. Question is: is it correct?

**po18guy** · #18 May 7, '12, 1:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

While not "proof" of purgatory.....at least not "proof" enough that cannot be inferred in the editions of scripture we ALL hold in common.....it still has no bearing on one's faith walk and salvation....believing in purgatory doesn't impart "salvic knowledge".

How about for the sake of your departed loved ones?

Publisher · #19 May 7, '12, 2:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy

How about for the sake of your departed loved ones?

My departed loved ones are in the Hands of God, the best Place to be...He does all things well....He and He alone is Judge. God thru Christ cleanses us and makes us righteous....it is by His astounding grace that we enter into the Presence.....I need no "belief" in purgatory to find hope for my departed loved ones....they are in Good Hands.

SonCatcher · #20 May 7, '12, 2:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Noonan

Very true. But some Protestants would point to fact of historic diversity in the biblical canon as a sign that the canon itself is flexible, which may be where the person is coming from. It's difficult to tell without more info.

They would make that decision on historical ignorance. Each apostolic church looks at its history and cannot determine a time when it did not have its current canon and none have modified their canon*. The founders of Protestantism intentionally removed books from the canon that they had received. Fortunately, they at least haven't added any books.

*I don't know how the Ethiopian Church came to a longer and shorter canon so this statement may be only partially true for them. None of the books I listed previously is absent from either of them, however.

SonCatcher · #21 May 7, '12, 2:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy

How about for the sake of your departed loved ones?

Publisher described his understanding on purgation in post #12. When he wrote "it is the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ that makes us fit and holy to enter into His Presence" we should keep in mind that this is what we believe happens when a soul goes through Purgatory.

**po18guy** · #22 May 7, '12, 2:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

Publisher described his understanding on purgation in post #12. When he wrote "it is the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ that makes us fit and holy to enter into His Presence" we should keep in mind that this is what we believe happens when a soul goes through Purgatory.

I suppose the humor in this has been lost...

Publisher · #23 May 7, '12, 3:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

Publisher described his understanding on purgation in post #12. When he wrote "it is the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ that makes us fit and holy to enter into His Presence" we should keep in mind that this is what we believe happens when a soul goes through Purgatory.

The difference, I do not believe in a "place of purgation". When God cleanses us by the work of the Holy Spirit...we are cleansed.

**po18guy** · #24 May 7, '12, 3:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

The difference, I do not believe in a "place of purgation". When God cleanses us by the work of the Holy Spirit...we are cleansed.

So, would the term "Cleansatory" be acceptable to you?

My questions are: when, where and how is this accomplished? Is it even necessary? Can it be done after bodily death? Is it being done now? Was it done, for all time, on the cross? You certainly must have a teaching on this, since Christ did not leave us orphans.

SonCatcher · #25 May 7, '12, 4:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

The difference, I do not believe in a "place of purgation". When God cleanses us by the work of the Holy Spirit...we are cleansed.

You had already written that.

There is room within Catholic theology to believe that Purgatory is an instantaneous condition or state. Essentially, this means a Catholic may believe it to neither require any additional time between death and entering God's presence. Therefore it would not logically entail any degree of separation from God.

Publisher · #26 May 7, '12, 4:50 pm

Since we're discussing mysteries.....I guess we are not too far apart after all.

**po18guy** · #27 May 7, '12, 5:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

Since we're discussing mysteries.....I guess we are not too far apart after all.

How about this: You believe in cleansing and we'll believe in purgatory. Either way, we hope to be saved as one escaping through fire, as Paul so mysteriously put it.

**LilyM** · #28 May 7, '12, 6:15 pm

"Man shall not live on bread alone, but on EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God"

Yes, it is all important. Every word.

Would you say 'I don't care whether this letter written to me by my wife/my doctors/a judge has some words or some pages missing.'?

Would you say 'there are chunks of this letter from my wife/my doctors/a judge that cane be safely ignored and not read because they don't matter'?

It would be foolish to think so. How much more important to have the complete word of God!

stewstew03 · #29 May 7, '12, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

They would make that decision on historical ignorance. Each apostolic church looks at its history and cannot determine a time when it did not have its current canon and none have modified their canon*. The founders of Protestantism intentionally removed books from the canon that they had received. Fortunately, they at least haven't added any books.

*I don't know how the Ethiopian Church came to a longer and shorter canon so this statement may be only partially true for them. None of the books I listed previously is absent from either of them, however.

Sweet! A footnote on CAF! Don't see many of those on here...

fisherman carl · #30 May 7, '12, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

Please provide an example of a teaching in the Deut. that imparts "salvic knowledge" that is not found in other passages.

This question could be asked of any OT book. For example, Ecclesiastes is in your canon. How do you know it is inspired? Does it give you goose bumps when you read it? Probably not. It is not quoted in the NT either.

' All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.' (2 Tim 3:16).

The bible says that all scripture is useful and profitable for... When Paul wrote that he was speaking of the OT scripture. All of it is useful. If not for us then for someone else. Paul argued with the Jews in the Synagogues using the OT scriptures.

The book of Wisdom is a great read. It even has a prophecy of Jesus in chapter 2. This chapter is alluded to in the gospel descriptions of the crowd against Jesus at his Passion. I could see Paul using that chapter to convince Jews that it was speaking of Jesus.

In the deuterocanonicals we see a clear belief in life after death and the resurrection whereas it is not as clear elsewhere.

The Jewish tradition of Hannukah is only found in the book of Maccabees. In addition Maccabeee describes the recapturing of the temple and a 400 year period up to Christ that is not mentioned in the Protestant bible.

It is from the understanding from hannukah, the dedication of the temple found in Maccabees, that we understand more deeply the significance of when Jesus was walking in Solomon's Portico since it was during this feast when he was in the temple declaring himself to be God. The glory of God's presence was once again in the temple through Jesus.