Begotten. When?

mikelionheart · #1 May 7, '12, 8:46 am

I Jesus is begotten of the Father was there then a time before Jesus was begotten and it was only the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Was the Holy Spirit begotten?

If so, when?

**1ke** · #2 May 7, '12, 9:26 am

No and no.

gelsbern · #3 May 7, '12, 9:27 am

Begotten is the past tense of Beget:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begotten

Quote:

be·get
[bih-get]
verb (used with object), be·got or (Archaic) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1. (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).

We read in the Bible when Jesus was begotten at the annunciation. So in this case they are talking about the physical or human form of Jesus.

God in all 3 part is eternal with no beginning or no end, all 3 parts Father, Son and Holy Spirit existed before time and will continue past the end of time.

John chapter 1 is pretty good evidence of this.

Quote:

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

We know of only one that was with God in the beginning and was made flesh.

Elizium23 · #4 May 7, '12, 9:38 am

We say this every week at Mass.

Quote:

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

as for the Holy Spirit, He is not begotten: he proceeds from the Father and from the Son.

Quote:

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,

snarflemike · #5 May 7, '12, 9:47 am

God is outside of time. When God the Father existed, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit also existed. And of course they have existed eternally.

mikelionheart · #6 May 7, '12, 10:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ke

No and no.

Well thank you for that well thought out and articulate reply.

That will really help me in my discussions with non-Trinitarians, anti-Christians and Catholics considering leaving the faith due to finding the Trinity ridiculous.

mikelionheart · #7 May 7, '12, 10:06 am

Snarflemaike, Elizium, gelsbern

So, there was no point at which the Father begat the Son and Spirit?
They were always begotten?

Nita · #8 May 7, '12, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikelionheart

So, there was no point at which the Father begat the Son and Spirit?
They were always begotten?

There was no "point" at which the Father began to beget the Son -- just as there was no point at which the Father began to exist. The Father eternally existed; the Son is "eternally begotten" of the Father; the Holy Spirit "eternally proceeds" from the Father and Son. Eternal -- existing always; no beginning and no end.

Elizium23 · #9 May 7, '12, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikelionheart

Snarflemaike, Elizium, gelsbern

So, there was no point at which the Father begat the Son and Spirit?
They were always begotten?

Please re-read my post and the Nicene creed. The Holy Spirit is not begotten.

Rich C · #10 May 7, '12, 10:46 am

From the Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism (#4):

Quote:

21. Q. Is there but one God?
A. Yes; there is but one God.

22. Q. Why can there be but one God?
A. There can be but one God because God, being supreme and infinite, cannot have an equal.

"Supreme" that is, the highest. "Equal" when two are equal one has everything the other has. You could say one pen is the equal of another if it is just as nice and will write just as well; one mechanic is the equal of another if he can do the work equally well. Two boys are equal in class if they have exactly the same marks at the end of the month or year. You could not have two persons chief For example, you could not have two chief generals in an army; two presidents in the nation, or two governors in a state, or two mayors in a city, or two principals in a school, unless they divide equally their power, and then they will be equals and neither of them chief. God cannot divide His power with anyone-so as to give it away entirely-because we say He is infinite, and that means to have all. Others have only the loan of their power from God. Therefore, all power and authority come from God; so that when we disobey our parents or superiors who are placed over us, we disobey God Himself.

23. Q. How many persons are there in God?
A. In God there are three divine persons really distinct and equal in all things-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

"Distinct," not mingled together. We call the first and second persons Father and Son, because the second is begotten by the first person, and not to indicate that there is any difference in their age. We always see in the world that a father is older than his son, so we get the idea perhaps that it is the same in the Holy Trinity. But it is not so. God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost existed from all eternity, and one did not exist before the other. God the Son is just as old as God the Father, and this is another great mystery. Even in nature we see that two things may begin to exist at the same time, and yet one be the cause of the other. You know that fire is the cause of heat; and yet the heat and the fire begin at the same time. Though we cannot understand this mystery of the Father and Son, we must believe it on the authority of God, who teaches it. First, second, and third person in the Blessed Trinity does not mean, therefore, that one person was before the other, or brought into existence by the other.

24. Q. Is the Father God?
A. The Father is God and the first Person of the Blessed Trinity.

25. Q. Is the Son God?
A. The Son is God and the second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

26. Q. Is the Holy Ghost God?
A. The Holy Ghost is God and the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

2. Q. What do you mean by the Blessed Trinity?
A. By the Blessed Trinity I mean one God in three Divine Persons.

28. Q. Are the three Divine Persons equal in all things?
A. The three Divine Persons are equal in all things.

29. Q. Are the three Divine Persons one and the same God?
A. The three Divine Persons are one and the same God, having one and the same divine nature and substance.

Though they are one and the same, we sometimes attribute different works to them. For example, works of creation we attribute to God the Father; works of mercy to God the Son; and works of love and sanctification to the Holy Ghost; and you will often find them thus spoken of in pious books; but all such works are ..done by all the Persons of the Trinity; because such works are the works of God, and there is but one God.

30. Q. Can we fully understand how the three Divine Persons are one and the same God?
A. We cannot fully understand how the three Divine Persons are one and the same God, because this is a mystery.

"Fully"--entirely. We can partly understand it. We know what one God is and we know what three persons are; but how these two things go together is the part we do not understand-the mystery.

mikelionheart · #11 May 7, '12, 11:04 am

Rich and Nita

Thanks for that.

Very useful posts.

mikelionheart · #12 May 7, '12, 11:20 am

That Baltimore Catechism looks brilliant.

I've heard it mentioned a lot.

Must get a copy.

patrick457 · #13 May 7, '12, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nita

There was no "point" at which the Father began to beget the Son -- just as there was no point at which the Father began to exist. The Father eternally existed; the Son is "eternally begotten" of the Father; the Holy Spirit "eternally proceeds" from the Father and Son. Eternal -- existing always; no beginning and no end.

If we go by the literal wording: τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων / et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula, "born/begotten of the Father before all the ages." So yeah, the Son is apparently begotten before the world was created, before time even started.

The Council of Nicaea actually had an anathema at the conclusion of its creed:

But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The first half of the Athanasian Creed sums it up rather nicely, if a bit too repetitively:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated.
The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited.
The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite.
So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty.
So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods; but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another.
But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Swiss Guy · #14 May 7, '12, 6:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikelionheart

I Jesus is begotten of the Father was there then a time before Jesus was begotten and it was only the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Was the Holy Spirit begotten?

If so, when?

Jesus Christ is eternally begotten by the Father. The Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

JonathonofOhio · #15 May 14, '12, 6:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikelionheart

That Baltimore Catechism looks brilliant.

I've heard it mentioned a lot.

Must get a copy.

Apparently you can get it free in different ebook formats here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14554

I have it on my kindle app on my ipad and I got it for free right from Amazon, but I'm not sure if it's still available for free on there.