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  #46  
Old May 10, '12, 6:02 am
ignatius777 ignatius777 is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
The United States Department of Education has admitted that the average cost of public education per pupil is slightly more than double the cost per pupil of a private education, even though public schools have more students per teacher. Thus, there was no economy of scale as the per pupil cost should theoretically decline the more students there are per teacher.

Our total cost per student in our Catholic school, before any payments or subsidizations, is in the $4K range. That is less than half what the state is paying for one of the neighborhood kids.
I dont think it really matters how much we pay per student if the outcome is a student who has actually learned something and is prepared, through the education they were given, to contribute to society. If they are not preapred then we have a problem. The real question is are we getting our money's worth?
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  #47  
Old May 10, '12, 6:25 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by ignatius777 View Post
I dont think it really matters how much we pay per student if the outcome is a student who has actually learned something and is prepared, through the education they were given, to contribute to society. If they are not preapred then we have a problem. The real question is are we getting our money's worth?
There are no longer any public schools. "Public schools" are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.
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  #48  
Old May 10, '12, 6:39 am
ignatius777 ignatius777 is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
There are no longer any public schools. "Public schools" are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.
Its a "public" school of my tax dollars are being wasted on it. I have advocated disbannning the dept of ed for years as well as some other depts. We dont need vouchers just let taxpayers keep the money currently wasted and let parents purchase education just like every other commodity and let the market work. The better education products at the best price will be most successful.
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  #49  
Old May 10, '12, 7:26 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
There are no longer any public schools. "Public schools" are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.
But this is a Don Quixote answer. Tilting at windmills. Trying to climb Mount Everest with just a pair of gym shoes....

You have to actually listen to those who oppose you, note where they make good points and disarm them by addressing those points. A universally offered $1,000 voucher would be a benefit to parents, students, private schools AND public school administrations. Only an alliance of all four of these groups has any hope of overcoming the self interest of the public school teacher's union that seeks monopoly control over education. By demaning a full voucher, you automatically put the public school administration in the position of considering you a threat instead of a potential ally. From there you will NEVER win.
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  #50  
Old May 10, '12, 7:29 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
[b][u][size="4"]... I have learned the hard way never to give a cashier more than one dollar in change. They cannot count it. If I give less than one dollar in change, the cashier just puts it into the cash register without counting it.
I used to work in a movie theatre, and one day the home office directed us to charge sales tax on candy counter sales. Up to that point, the tax was included in the price. That didn't last too long because we lost money: the candy girls were giving back too much change. [Since the cash register didn't subtract, that operation had to be done manually. If the total of a sale was, say, 76 cents and the customer paid with a dollar bill, the candy girl would figure the change to be 34 cents.] They did this even though we trained them how to count back the change.

Quote:
... Many college professors have resorted to all sorts of gimmicks to help raise the grade average of their students. Many professors actually have a review for the test, which is actually a veiled attempt to go over the questions on the test.
Things sure have changed since I entered college where they tried to fail students. I actually overheard two math teachers [?] making up a test and one remarking, "Ooo, yeah. That one will really get them!" Freshman English was even worse.

Quote:
... Efficiency and effectiveness are hallmarks of private business, not government administration. ...
The government calculates efficiency by dividing direct hours by total hours. [Direct hours are those spent on actually performing the mission, as opposed to administrative and overhead.]
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  #51  
Old May 10, '12, 7:34 am
ignatius777 ignatius777 is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
But this is a Don Quixote answer. Tilting at windmills. Trying to climb Mount Everest with just a pair of gym shoes....

You have to actually listen to those who oppose you, note where they make good points and disarm them by addressing those points. A universally offered $1,000 voucher would be a benefit to parents, students, private schools AND public school administrations. Only an alliance of all four of these groups has any hope of overcoming the self interest of the public school teacher's union that seeks monopoly control over education. By demaning a full voucher, you automatically put the public school administration in the position of considering you a threat instead of a potential ally. From there you will NEVER win.
How would you propose to get public school administrations, which you rightly claim seek a "monopoly control over education" to join an "alliance"? Kids dont belong in govt run goulags 5 days a week where they are indoctrinated with propaganda. Public schools ARE the enemy. You dont enter an "alliance" with somene who is trying to strangle you to death.
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  #52  
Old May 10, '12, 8:32 am
Mrs Sally Mrs Sally is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

OK, let's disband the DEd. Let's get rid of all public schools.

Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn't enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.

It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace. We can definately argue that they aren't going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn't call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.
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  #53  
Old May 10, '12, 8:34 am
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

The Department of Education was established in 1979 and began operating in 1980. Has education gotten better since then?
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  #54  
Old May 10, '12, 8:59 am
ignatius777 ignatius777 is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
The Department of Education was established in 1979 and began operating in 1980. Has education gotten better since then?
only if we define "better" as american students testing below other students from countries that spend less money on education.
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  #55  
Old May 10, '12, 9:00 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by Mrs Sally View Post
OK, let's disband the DEd. Let's get rid of all public schools.

Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn't enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.

It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace. We can definately argue that they aren't going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn't call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.

Doubt about new schools:
What reason is there to suppose that alternatives will really arise? The reason is that a market would develop where it does not exist today. The one prediction that can be made is that only those schools that satisfy their customers will survive. Competition would see to that.

Parents will vote with their school vouchers as to whether a "public" (government) school closes or stays open. What will close are all the Departments of Education in all the states and in Washington, D.C. These departments have been both inefficient and ineffective! If you want something to be done correctly, do NOT ask the government to do it.
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  #56  
Old May 10, '12, 9:26 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Sally View Post
OK, let's disband the DEd. Let's get rid of all public schools.
While there is measurable support for disbanding the DEd., no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. The idea is that by letting the parents decide which school to send their kids, public schools will shape up. They would also give parents the same option, or close to it, that Democrat politicians have.

Quote:
Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn't enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.
I don’t follow this non-sequitur. What you are saying is keep the status quo, so reform would come around, like the 12th … ... of never.

Quote:
It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace.
Agreed, but what we are getting is an indoctrinated populace. In fact, it is already the case. Consider this article:
“GATE-closing plan stirs parental debate at Lincoln Middle School”
By Adam Klawonn
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
May 19, 2005
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/e...1mi19vusd.html

VISTA, CA – Parents of Latino students at Vista's most ethnically diverse school are incensed over a campaign by other parents to preserve an honors program there.

The policy debate is taking place at Lincoln Middle School, where the principal is proposing mixing some of the school's most gifted students with others of mixed academic abilities in an effort to pump up test scores.

The proposal to dismantle the Gifted and Talented Education, or GATE, program at the school is supported by the Latino parents, opposed by parents of the GATE students.

The matter returns to trustees of the Vista Unified School District for review Monday night.
"All students should be treated equally," Latino parents said in a letter to the board and district administrators. "We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less."
Now, where did they get the idea that schools “create differences between students”? From the schools themselves by hyping race, ethnicity, and radical egalitarianism.

Quote:
We can definately argue that they aren't going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn't call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.
Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took one data point and extrapolated a whole universe.
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  #57  
Old May 10, '12, 9:28 am
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
While there is measurable support for disbanding the DEd., no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. The idea is that by letting the parents decide which school to send their kids, public schools will shape up. They would also give parents the same option, or close to it, that Democrat politicians have.


I don’t follow this non-sequitur. What you are saying is keep the status quo, so reform would come around, like the 12th … ... of never.

Agreed, but what we are getting is an indoctrinated populace. In fact, it is already the case. Consider this article:
“GATE-closing plan stirs parental debate at Lincoln Middle School”
By Adam Klawonn
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
May 19, 2005
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/e...1mi19vusd.html

VISTA, CA – Parents of Latino students at Vista's most ethnically diverse school are incensed over a campaign by other parents to preserve an honors program there.

The policy debate is taking place at Lincoln Middle School, where the principal is proposing mixing some of the school's most gifted students with others of mixed academic abilities in an effort to pump up test scores.

The proposal to dismantle the Gifted and Talented Education, or GATE, program at the school is supported by the Latino parents, opposed by parents of the GATE students.

The matter returns to trustees of the Vista Unified School District for review Monday night.
"All students should be treated equally," Latino parents said in a letter to the board and district administrators. "We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less."
Now, where did they get the idea that schools “create differences between students”? From the schools themselves by hyping race, ethnicity, and radical egalitarianism.



Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took one data point and extrapolated a whole universe.
Honestly, I can see where the poster got that idea, because that's exactly the idea I'm getting from ACCT's posts.

ACCT's post are so defensive and combative that even though I haven't made up my mind yet about what I think about vouchers, his/her posts are actually swaying me AGAINST them.
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  #58  
Old May 10, '12, 9:40 am
Mrs Sally Mrs Sally is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took one data point and extrapolated a whole universe.
Yep, I agree that's what you did.
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  #59  
Old May 10, '12, 9:40 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
...ACCT's post are so defensive and combative that even though I haven't made up my mind yet about what I think about vouchers, his/her posts are actually swaying me AGAINST them.
There is an up-side to this. No vouchers means that private schools don't have to dance to the government's tune, and they can keep the troublemakers out, as the anti-voucher folks keep reminding us.
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  #60  
Old May 10, '12, 9:42 am
Mrs Sally Mrs Sally is offline
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Default Re: The Failure of "Public" Education

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
There is an up-side to this. No vouchers mean that private schools don't have to dance to the government's tune, and they can keep the troublemakers out.
And who are the troublemakers? Disabled children? children who don't speak English well? children who are perhaps not so smart?

And where are these troublemakers, however they are defined, going to get an education? Because I assure you that and uneducated troublemakers is worse than the alternative.
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