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  #16  
Old May 8, '12, 8:48 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Another factor to consider:
If the man is the spiritual head of the family, doesn't that mean that its his job to decide what's moral for the family (much like God in relation to the Church)?
You bring up a good point here, one which I neglected in my previous two answers.

The husband is subject to God, and God sets down the rules of morality. The husband can no more "decide what's moral for the family" than he can say that cowardice is a virtue and courage a sin.

So, God is like the CEO, the husband is like the VP in charge of training, and the wife is like his assistant, and the children are those being trained.
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"The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves. The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe; they are intolerant in practice because they do not love."
-Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P



  #17  
Old May 8, '12, 9:12 am
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
There are times when one's husband, like one's boss, might make the wrong decision. As a wife, I am to support my husband but not be a doormat. In circumstances such as you describe, then I would discuss it with my husband, just as I would hope that he would discuss things with me, but if he were bound and determined, then I might just practice some tough love and let him deal with the consequences of his decision, just as my husband occasionally does for me.
What negative consequences would a husband have from drinking beer and watching football?

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
We see the same thing happening in the business world: a boss will make a decision which the subordinate or employee sees is a bad decision. The employee may discuss it with the boss, but there's only so far that the employee can go without being fired, right?
Thats only true, if the boss is the sole owner of the buisiness. As soon as someone higher in the hierachy, the employee might try to disobey the wrong orders of his immiediate boss and hope that the on up the food chain will see the mistake as well and fire the immidieate boos.

There are even situations where an employee would be rewuired by law to ignore wrong orders by his boss. E.g. dangerous devices like nuclear power plant, water damn, chemical industry and so on is malfunctioning and boss gives stupid orders making the problem worse. If the employee knowingly followed this orders he could face prison.

And even in the military, where disobeying orders in war time was at least in former times punishable by death, drastically stupid orders might be disobeyed and if the superiors agreed enough with the assesment of the order, the decision to disobey would have been the right just as with the employee (only with more serious consquences).

So i do not know any area of human life, where obviously wrong orders have to be followed. The exception are Gods commands, which are per defintion not stupid and per defintion we would be unable to notice, if they would be stupid.
But as a women is roughly as intelligent as a man, there seems to be no reason for blind obeying.
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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
In the business world, we see that responsibility is delegated--some businesses even have a sort of map showing who is responsible for what. We would have chaos if the VP in charge of sales suddenly started making decisions that belong to the VP in charge of personnel, no? Sometimes we have to let people face the consequences of their own bad decisions and learn that way if they refuse to listen to us.
But in buisiness just as in family there are often others, who must face the consequences.
  #18  
Old May 8, '12, 9:52 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by carn View Post
What negative consequences would a husband have from drinking beer and watching football?
If there were no negative consequences, what would the problem be?


Quote:
Thats only true, if the boss is the sole owner of the buisiness. As soon as someone higher in the hierachy, the employee might try to disobey the wrong orders of his immiediate boss and hope that the on up the food chain will see the mistake as well and fire the immidieate boos.

There are even situations where an employee would be rewuired by law to ignore wrong orders by his boss. E.g. dangerous devices like nuclear power plant, water damn, chemical industry and so on is malfunctioning and boss gives stupid orders making the problem worse. If the employee knowingly followed this orders he could face prison.

And even in the military, where disobeying orders in war time was at least in former times punishable by death, drastically stupid orders might be disobeyed and if the superiors agreed enough with the assesment of the order, the decision to disobey would have been the right just as with the employee (only with more serious consquences).
You are absolutely right. And if it came to a situation of immorality or disobedience to God's laws, then the wife would have a different approach.

Quote:
So i do not know any area of human life, where obviously wrong orders have to be followed. The exception are Gods commands, which are per defintion not stupid and per defintion we would be unable to notice, if they would be stupid.
But as a women is roughly as intelligent as a man, there seems to be no reason for blind obeying.
I myself said nothing about blind obedience--I suggested that the wife discuss things with her husband; I equated the wife with an employee who discussed things with the boss.


Quote:
But in buisiness just as in family there are often others, who must face the consequences.
All of life is like that. I was not talking about situations in which the consequences of a husband's decision would be so terrible that a wife ought to step in. I was talking about relatively normal people both of whom are Christians, since the original context was Catholic.
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"The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves. The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe; they are intolerant in practice because they do not love."
-Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P



  #19  
Old May 8, '12, 10:09 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[quote=St Francis;9271926]There are times when one's husband, like one's boss, might make the wrong decision. As a wife, I am to support my husband but not be a doormat. In circumstances such as you describe, then I would discuss it with my husband, just as I would hope that he would discuss things with me, but if he were bound and determined, then I might just practice some tough love and let him deal with the consequences of his decision, just as my husband occasionally does for me.

We see the same thing happening in the business world: a boss will make a decision which the subordinate or employee sees is a bad decision. The employee may discuss it with the boss, but there's only so far that the employee can go without being fired, right?

In the business world, we see that responsibility is delegated--some businesses even have a sort of map showing who is responsible for what. We would have chaos if the VP in charge of sales suddenly started making decisions that belong to the VP in charge of personnel, no? Sometimes we have to let people face the consequences of their own bad decisions and learn that way if they refuse to listen to us.[/QUOTE]

But employees can quit if their bosses make consistently bad decisions.
Can a wife quit a marriage if her 'boss' makes consistently bad (or for that matter evil or insane) decisions?
  #20  
Old May 8, '12, 10:12 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
Do you think that a person who has a boss is childlike compared to the boss?

Consider this: a wife owns a small business. There, she is the boss--she makes the decisions, she hires and fires, etc. Her husband is an employee of a big company. He has a boss over him, he is told what to do.

And yet at home, within the family, things are different. There her husband has been put in charge by God, Whom it seems you do not believe in, but in Whom we believe. I believe that my husband is in charge. I may not be happy about some of his decisions, just as there are things I am in charge of within the family and he may not be happy with some of my decisions.

Consider what would happen within a company if everyone decided that they were in charge!
What if he ordered you to do something evil or insane?
Like murdering someone or giving away everything to charity (so that there wasn't even enough left to feed the family).
  #21  
Old May 8, '12, 10:15 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
Do you think that a person who has a boss is childlike compared to the boss?

Consider this: a wife owns a small business. There, she is the boss--she makes the decisions, she hires and fires, etc. Her husband is an employee of a big company. He has a boss over him, he is told what to do.

And yet at home, within the family, things are different. There her husband has been put in charge by God, Whom it seems you do not believe in, but in Whom we believe. I believe that my husband is in charge. I may not be happy about some of his decisions, just as there are things I am in charge of within the family and he may not be happy with some of my decisions.

Consider what would happen within a company if everyone decided that they were in charge!
I was under the impression that Catholic marriages were supposed to be partnerships
  #22  
Old May 8, '12, 10:18 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
You bring up a good point here, one which I neglected in my previous two answers.

The husband is subject to God, and God sets down the rules of morality. The husband can no more "decide what's moral for the family" than he can say that cowardice is a virtue and courage a sin.

So, God is like the CEO, the husband is like the VP in charge of training, and the wife is like his assistant, and the children are those being trained.
So the wife is at the bottom of the hierarchy (except for small children, who can get promoted if their boys).

If I believed that I would thank God (literally) that I'm not a woman.
  #23  
Old May 8, '12, 10:20 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
You bring up a good point here, one which I neglected in my previous two answers.

The husband is subject to God, and God sets down the rules of morality. The husband can no more "decide what's moral for the family" than he can say that cowardice is a virtue and courage a sin.

So, God is like the CEO, the husband is like the VP in charge of training, and the wife is like his assistant, and the children are those being trained.
Except in practice, God is like an absentee landlord and the husband is the one left in charge of the property.
  #24  
Old May 8, '12, 10:29 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
If there were no negative consequences, what would the problem be?



You are absolutely right. And if it came to a situation of immorality or disobedience to God's laws, then the wife would have a different approach.


I myself said nothing about blind obedience--I suggested that the wife discuss things with her husband; I equated the wife with an employee who discussed things with the boss.



All of life is like that. I was not talking about situations in which the consequences of a husband's decision would be so terrible that a wife ought to step in. I was talking about relatively normal people both of whom are Christians, since the original context was Catholic.
Why would the husband (or the boss for that matter) ever have to discuss anything?
He's the one in charge.
If the wife disobeys isn't she rebelling against his Godly authority?
  #25  
Old May 8, '12, 11:56 am
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bmullins bmullins is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Actually you appear to think that it is the intent of the verse.
Because in the very same post you say:
Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it's just the man, but it's not. It's God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision.

-Now you can say that God has the deciding vote, in practically speaking its the man's (since God seldom just comes out and says what he wants).
I would contend that God seldom ever doesn't come out and say what he wants. It's very simple to find God's will. Get out the Bible. Go to church. Listen to a priest. Find a good counsel. Talk to your wife. Spend time in Adoration. God can use all of those to speak to you. My point is this... the husband is only the head of the house.. when he puts the house before his own wants and needs. In a true relationship both of them run the house, because the wife is more important to the husband than his own life.
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  #26  
Old May 8, '12, 11:58 am
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Why would the husband (or the boss for that matter) ever have to discuss anything?
He's the one in charge.
If the wife disobeys isn't she rebelling against his Godly authority?
Apparently you've never had a good boss. A good boss doesn't just make decisions without knowing his employees and their skills, and even asking their input. Especially when the decision involves those employees. There are all kinds of bad bosses, bad husbands, and yes bad wives. We are talking about how it should be, not necessarily how it actually pans out. The good boss, and the good husband, both take the wife and the employee into consideration and ask for their opinion, and often when it is the employees domain, step aside and let the employee make the decisions.
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  #27  
Old May 8, '12, 1:16 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Originally Posted by bmullins View Post
I would contend that God seldom ever doesn't come out and say what he wants. It's very simple to find God's will. Get out the Bible. Go to church. Listen to a priest. Find a good counsel. Talk to your wife. Spend time in Adoration. God can use all of those to speak to you. My point is this... the husband is only the head of the house.. when he puts the house before his own wants and needs. In a true relationship both of them run the house, because the wife is more important to the husband than his own life.
So God is other people then (but not you're wife)?

What's to prevent a man from simply relying on sources that tell him what he wants to hear?
  #28  
Old May 8, '12, 1:18 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Apparently you've never had a good boss. A good boss doesn't just make decisions without knowing his employees and their skills, and even asking their input. Especially when the decision involves those employees. There are all kinds of bad bosses, bad husbands, and yes bad wives. We are talking about how it should be, not necessarily how it actually pans out. The good boss, and the good husband, both take the wife and the employee into consideration and ask for their opinion, and often when it is the employees domain, step aside and let the employee make the decisions.
I have had a few good bosses, but I have had more bad ones.
  #29  
Old May 8, '12, 1:19 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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Apparently you've never had a good boss. A good boss doesn't just make decisions without knowing his employees and their skills, and even asking their input. Especially when the decision involves those employees. There are all kinds of bad bosses, bad husbands, and yes bad wives. We are talking about how it should be, not necessarily how it actually pans out. The good boss, and the good husband, both take the wife and the employee into consideration and ask for their opinion, and often when it is the employees domain, step aside and let the employee make the decisions.
Any system that depends on everyone always being on their best behavior is doomed to fail, and therefore a bad system.
  #30  
Old May 8, '12, 2:12 pm
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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But employees can quit if their bosses make consistently bad decisions.
Can a wife quit a marriage if her 'boss' makes consistently bad (or for that matter evil or insane) decisions?
If her husband is making very bad decisions, yes, she can leave him. If they are sacramentally married, then she will remain married in the eyes of God, but she will be away from her husband.
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-Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P



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