Burnout

Yeoman · #1 May 8, '12, 5:56 am

I suppose this is as good of place to post this as any.

Are there any other lawyers here?

I've been a lawyer for 22 years, and I'm burned out. Really burned out. I've been in litigation for that entire 22 years and I'm just sick of everything about it. On top of it, my real interests have always been found elsewhere, as my post on the vocations column would note:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...98#post9271298

I'm now worried and scared. I have no other skills, I know I'm badly burned out, I"m really tired of people in general, and I don't know what to do about it. I fear that I'm going to ultimately end up out of work as I'll just cease being effective.

This seems to be a fairly common problem in this field, which is subject to all sorts of bad things on a daily basis, let alone moral problems for those with a sense of right and wrong. There's lots of on line articles on how to prevent burn out (a lot of which I'd wager don't work) but there's next to nothing on what to do if you are burned out.

I suppose that this may be an odd post here, but I keep on keeping on as I have no other financial options, and my family is depending on the income that this leaky vessel is carrying. The entire thing depresses me and I have a hard time seeing any way out. Thoughts?

DJK100 · #2 May 8, '12, 7:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I suppose this is as good of place to post this as any.

Are there any other lawyers here?

I've been a lawyer for 22 years, and I'm burned out. Really burned out. I've been in litigation for that entire 22 years and I'm just sick of everything about it. On top of it, my real interests have always been found elsewhere, as my post on the vocations column would note:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...98#post9271298

I'm now worried and scared. I have no other skills, I know I'm badly burned out, I"m really tired of people in general, and I don't know what to do about it. I fear that I'm going to ultimately end up out of work as I'll just cease being effective.

This seems to be a fairly common problem in this field, which is subject to all sorts of bad things on a daily basis, let alone moral problems for those with a sense of right and wrong. There's lots of on line articles on how to prevent burn out (a lot of which I'd wager don't work) but there's next to nothing on what to do if you are burned out.

I suppose that this may be an odd post here, but I keep on keeping on as I have no other financial options, and my family is depending on the income that this leaky vessel is carrying. The entire thing depresses me and I have a hard time seeing any way out. Thoughts?

Hi my friend,

I am in a field that also is high stress and subject to a lot of burn out. If you are as bad as you say you are you need to find a way to step back and give yourself some room to breath.

Here is what I would do in your situation. First, find a councillor to talk to. A lot of times it really helps just to be able to talk about or b*tch about your problems to someone else -- to blow off steam if you will. Second, see if you can take a sabatical from your job to recharge. Third, talk to your family about trying to reduce your work hours and if necessary having them pick up a little of the slack by having your kids possibly get a part time job, cutting back on extraneous expenses and maybe having your wife work as well if she wants to and does not already. Fourth, it seems you are bothered by the moral dilemma's your job puts you in. Perhaps you can be more selective on the cases that you do take or ask your firm (if you work in one) to take more of a background role for a while. You could also look into changing into a different field of law (although I do not know how feasible this is... I am not a lawyer so I don't know) to something less morally objectionable. Maybe cutting back on the cases you hate and taking on a pro bono case that you are really interested in even if it is slighly out of your area of expertise. This would help provide you with a change of pace.

Also, always try to remind yourself that you actually provide a service to people who oftentimes are in dire need of help. That you can actually use your talents for the betterment of another.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I just read your linked to thread and thought I might offer one suggestion. I know there are various parts of the country where the Homestead Act is still in effect so you might be able to get cheap land that way if you are willing to move. Just a thought.

Scoobyshme · #3 May 8, '12, 7:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I suppose this is as good of place to post this as any.

Are there any other lawyers here?

I've been a lawyer for 22 years, and I'm burned out. Really burned out. I've been in litigation for that entire 22 years and I'm just sick of everything about it. On top of it, my real interests have always been found elsewhere, as my post on the vocations column would note:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...98#post9271298

I'm now worried and scared. I have no other skills, I know I'm badly burned out, I"m really tired of people in general, and I don't know what to do about it. I fear that I'm going to ultimately end up out of work as I'll just cease being effective.

This seems to be a fairly common problem in this field, which is subject to all sorts of bad things on a daily basis, let alone moral problems for those with a sense of right and wrong. There's lots of on line articles on how to prevent burn out (a lot of which I'd wager don't work) but there's next to nothing on what to do if you are burned out.

I suppose that this may be an odd post here, but I keep on keeping on as I have no other financial options, and my family is depending on the income that this leaky vessel is carrying. The entire thing depresses me and I have a hard time seeing any way out. Thoughts?

I'm pretty burned out in my field, too. Have you considered a long retreat somewhere? A silent retreat would be best. Refresh your batteries, at least.

And I know how you feel. I don't like people in general, either. Our society is full of narcissistic hedonists, who really don't believe in God. They don't know much about God but they know everything the society and the national media brainwash them into believing. Saying they're "messed up" is a huge understatement.

DJK100 · #4 May 8, '12, 7:44 am

To the OP,

I just had a thought, you said you are very well respected in your field and in your state. You might want to look into becoming a consultant. This would reduce your hours and still enable you to get paid.

TheRealJuliane · #5 May 8, '12, 8:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I suppose this is as good of place to post this as any.

Are there any other lawyers here?

I've been a lawyer for 22 years, and I'm burned out. Really burned out. I've been in litigation for that entire 22 years and I'm just sick of everything about it. On top of it, my real interests have always been found elsewhere, as my post on the vocations column would note:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...98#post9271298

I'm now worried and scared. I have no other skills, I know I'm badly burned out, I"m really tired of people in general, and I don't know what to do about it. I fear that I'm going to ultimately end up out of work as I'll just cease being effective.

This seems to be a fairly common problem in this field, which is subject to all sorts of bad things on a daily basis, let alone moral problems for those with a sense of right and wrong. There's lots of on line articles on how to prevent burn out (a lot of which I'd wager don't work) but there's next to nothing on what to do if you are burned out.

I suppose that this may be an odd post here, but I keep on keeping on as I have no other financial options, and my family is depending on the income that this leaky vessel is carrying. The entire thing depresses me and I have a hard time seeing any way out. Thoughts?

See your doctor. You may be in mild to moderate depression. Burnout as such can be clinical depression too. Not to say you might still want to change fields after treatment, but your outlook can be helped.

I see your other thread. Have you got the means to buy a ranch? If not, a cousin of mine got a job on a working ranch and was provided a place to live, and a salary. He is a sort of handyman, jack of all trades. If you have ranch experience of any sort, I would use that going forward.

How about you start learning about property law, etc. and that can be part of what you use in running a ranch?

Ranches for Sale

As a lawyer you can probably get a pretty good loan.

I vote that you do this. What about a ranch to help troubled children?

Yeoman · #6 May 9, '12, 5:56 am

Thank you all so much for the replies. I'm considering everything noted, and have attempted to draft a follow up a couple of times.

On clarifications on a couple of things raised, no, I don't have the money to buy a ranch. Just too expensive here. Leasing is my best option. And I don't want to use my position as a lawyer as the basis for a loan (and that job doesn't pay anything like what people think it does), as that would tie me to that job. On the troubled youth aspect, while it's terrible of me to admit it, I've had all the troubled people I can stand, and no longer have any desire to try to sort out troubles on that sort of basis.

TheRealJuliane · #7 May 9, '12, 11:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

Thank you all so much for the replies. I'm considering everything noted, and have attempted to draft a follow up a couple of times.

On clarifications on a couple of things raised, no, I don't have the money to buy a ranch. Just too expensive here. Leasing is my best option. And I don't want to use my position as a lawyer as the basis for a loan (and that job doesn't pay anything like what people think it does), as that would tie me to that job. On the troubled youth aspect, while it's terrible of me to admit it, I've had all the troubled people I can stand, and no longer have any desire to try to sort out troubles on that sort of basis.

That's OK, I was just brainstorming. I actually wanted to run such a ranch for a number of years. Then I found a guy already doing it, so I could send my very troubled son to him for help.

It's certainly not terrible of you to state that you would like a peaceful life without difficult people surrounding you!

I vote you do whatever it is as soon as possible. Go forward without fear - you surely can find something that will remove the stress from your life. Life is over in a blink - why waste one minute longer in torture? I know, it feeds the family...but seriously...Life is so short. Think of the value to your family if you are happy instead of being stressed out and burned out.

manualman · #8 May 9, '12, 3:08 pm

Look on the bright side: you probably know all the BEST lawyer jokes, eh?

Consulting is no cure-all either. Believe me. You've got a lot of years on me, but I'm already sick and tired of figuring, negotiating, filling out endless forms and methodically knocking down all the myriad of land development roadblocks only to be told by the client that he's upset how expensive the bill is and he ain't payin' it.

In the end, most work sucks in the modern economy. My suspicion is the civilization is eventually going to collapse under the weight of its own bureacracy. There appears to be 15 paper pushers for every one person who actually does anything productive anymore. Not only is that inefficient, it is really soul crushing on the paper pushers.

HailStarofSea · #9 May 26, '12, 10:19 am

There are studies that show that in support groups, the person who does the most supporting gets the most happiness. Try to join a support group for depressed/burnout lawyers and take a lead role in organizing it. You will get suggestions from others and feedback that will help you solve your problems plus the effect on morale from helping to organize.

Try to figure out an exit strategy to become a rancher. Keep working towards the goal. It may seem unrealistic, but if it gives you hope, so what? It may happen, and you lose nothing by strategically attempting to achieve it.

Can you take cases that relate to law related to farming or ranching? Perhaps if you were willing to work on those cases for lower than your normal rate, you could choose the clients instead of them choosing you. If so, perhaps you might make a connection on one of these cases where you could find yourself on a good deal that is better than market value b/c it works for both of you. Perhaps you could work as a lawyer part-time or become a part-time rancher. You said you don't have enough money to buy a ranch here. Why are you so committed to staying where you are and not moving to an affordable place? Why don't you go ahead and lease as a hobby with plans to scale up later?

Start "learn all you can about business practices, corporations and what to do with your assets. You will need to know how to secure your financial future and that of your farm just in case a tragedy does occur." Even if you can't become a rancher now, plan out various aspects of becoming a rancher so that you will be ready if an opportunity arises.

Yeoman · #10 May 27, '12, 6:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HailStarofSea

There are studies that show that in support groups, the person who does the most supporting gets the most happiness. Try to join a support group for depressed/burnout lawyers and take a lead role in organizing it. You will get suggestions from others and feedback that will help you solve your problems plus the effect on morale from helping to organize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HailStarofSea

Can you take cases that relate to law related to farming or ranching? Perhaps if you were willing to work on those cases for lower than your normal rate, you could choose the clients instead of them choosing you. If so, perhaps you might make a connection on one of these cases where you could find yourself on a good deal that is better than market value b/c it works for both of you. Perhaps you could work as a lawyer part-time or become a part-time rancher. You said you don't have enough money to buy a ranch here. Why are you so committed to staying where you are and not moving to an affordable place? Why don't you go ahead and lease as a hobby with plans to scale up later?

I appreciate all suggestions, but at nearly 50 years of age, I'm too old, I think, to go from hobby to full time. I think I have to basically get it done now.

On farm and ranch legal work, that oddly enough works as s detriment to achieving the goal, I find. It pigeonholes the lawyer in the minds of farmers and ranchers as a lawyer, and you need their help to operate really. I've done a lot of farm and ranch work, and that's what's tended to happen, legally. Also, combining something that makes you miserable with something that doesn't tends to make that other thing miserable too, in my view and experience.

I do appreciate all the input, however.

Right now, what I'm trying to do is to make my wishes known to those whom I trust, to get advice, and maybe help, getting out of law and into the fields.

jilly4ski · #11 Jun 2, '12, 3:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I appreciate all suggestions, but at nearly 50 years of age, I'm too old, I think, to go from hobby to full time. I think I have to basically get it done now.

On farm and ranch legal work, that oddly enough works as s detriment to achieving the goal, I find. It pigeonholes the lawyer in the minds of farmers and ranchers as a lawyer, and you need their help to operate really. I've done a lot of farm and ranch work, and that's what's tended to happen, legally. Also, combining something that makes you miserable with something that doesn't tends to make that other thing miserable too, in my view and experience.

I do appreciate all the input, however.

Right now, what I'm trying to do is to make my wishes known to those whom I trust, to get advice, and maybe help, getting out of law and into the fields.

Could you perhaps change your specialty in law? I am an unemployed lawyer (out of school a year) right now and looking at all the ads, they want people with experience (5-7years). You could change to something a little less stressful like estate planning, tax, or patents? Maybe something like this will still provide you with an income, a change of pace, but give you more time to do your hobby.

I know Florida stopped having waive-ins because too many lawyers were retiring to FL and practicing part time as an estate planners to all the old people in their neighborhoods.

Yeoman · #12 Jun 5, '12, 8:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jilly4ski

Could you perhaps change your specialty in law? I am an unemployed lawyer (out of school a year) right now and looking at all the ads, they want people with experience (5-7years). You could change to something a little less stressful like estate planning, tax, or patents? Maybe something like this will still provide you with an income, a change of pace, but give you more time to do your hobby.

I know Florida stopped having waive-ins because too many lawyers were retiring to FL and practicing part time as an estate planners to all the old people in their neighborhoods.

I know this sounds snarky, but I don't want a new specialty in law, I want out of law. Truth be known, a very high percentage of lawyers do as well. And I don't want agriculture to be a "hobby", I want that to be my work. The fact that it is a hobby with some, in my mind, is a problem in that it takes what could be productive work for some away from them to be a hobby to others.

The irony of our respective situations is expressed, very innocently, in your question. Law is a horrible occupation, and most lawyers want out or wish they'd never entered it, but can't get out, or don't feel they can get out. New law school grads can't get in. We envy you, as, if you are lucky, you wont get in this field and will go into something that won't make you miserable. I wish there's been no law jobs when I first graduated.

Yeoman · #13 Jun 5, '12, 8:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I know this sounds snarky, but I don't want a new specialty in law, I want out of law. Truth be known, a very high percentage of lawyers do as well. And I don't want agriculture to be a "hobby", I want that to be my work. The fact that it is a hobby with some, in my mind, is a problem in that it takes what could be productive work for some away from them to be a hobby to others.

The irony of our respective situations is expressed, very innocently, in your question. Law is a horrible occupation, and most lawyers want out or wish they'd never entered it, but can't get out, or don't feel they can get out. New law school grads can't get in. We envy you, as, if you are lucky, you wont get in this field and will go into something that won't make you miserable. I wish there's been no law jobs when I first graduated.

One other thing on this, and connected to burnout, that I would note is that once you are established as a lawyer, it fallows you around night and day. I get asked legal questions at church, at weddings, everywhere. People assume that you are always wanting to discuss the law. And even friends of mine who I knew when I was just a teenager will bring up legal topics when I see them. Indeed, people I don't even know, when introduced, will say "oh, the lawyer."

I really fear that there will never be a day where that does not occur. I wish for a day where people don't identify my as a lawyer and don't ask legal questions.

Again, thank your lucky stars you haven't found legal work.

jilly4ski · #14 Jun 5, '12, 9:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeoman

I know this sounds snarky, but I don't want a new specialty in law, I want out of law. Truth be known, a very high percentage of lawyers do as well. And I don't want agriculture to be a "hobby", I want that to be my work. The fact that it is a hobby with some, in my mind, is a problem in that it takes what could be productive work for some away from them to be a hobby to others.

The irony of our respective situations is expressed, very innocently, in your question. Law is a horrible occupation, and most lawyers want out or wish they'd never entered it, but can't get out, or don't feel they can get out. New law school grads can't get in. We envy you, as, if you are lucky, you wont get in this field and will go into something that won't make you miserable. I wish there's been no law jobs when I first graduated.

No it doesn't sound snarky. When you want out you want out. I was just curious if it was all law, or just the pressures of your particular field or job that you were experiencing.

I also have many relatives who are farmers. My uncle who is a successful farmer, likens his profession closer to that of a wall street speculator or a professional gambler than a farmer. It is all speculation on what crops will pay the best, and do the best, and what the government will do as far as subsidies, etc.

Of course it is ironic. You want out, I want in, we both of us need to pay our bills.

Unfortunately most lawyers need to work a year or two in law to get any other job, like recruiter, or those other non-law jobs, that will pay enough to pay off the student loans. Loans which unfortunately create a culture where one really needs a decent paying law job. Be grateful for the financial stability your job has brought to your family, so far my lack of job has created more stress and trials, and will probably continue to do so as loans age and interest piles up.

Yeoman · #15 Jun 5, '12, 12:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jilly4ski

Of course it is ironic. You want out, I want in, we both of us need to pay our bills.

Unfortunately most lawyers need to work a year or two in law to get any other job, like recruiter, or those other non-law jobs, that will pay enough to pay off the student loans. Loans which unfortunately create a culture where one really needs a decent paying law job. Be grateful for the financial stability your job has brought to your family, so far my lack of job has created more stress and trials, and will probably continue to do so as loans age and interest piles up.

One of the great myths of the law field is that working as a lawyer will qualify you to move to something else. It will not. What actually tends to happen is that you become associated with a certain type of law, and it is hard to move out of it.

Not having a job is extremely stressful in its own right, that's for sure. That's the main reason I went back to law school, as my prior career field was in such a slump I couldn't find work in it when I graduated. Fortunately, I did not have loans I had to pay, but as you note, a person has to make a living. I guess that all goes to show how important those early career decisions are.