Holding Hands during the Our Father - Page 19

CatherineOH · #**271** May 14, '12, 8:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by poorsinner7

I only hold hands with my immediate family, children and wife. I don't always do it then either. I was taught that this is okay and that there are two acceptable ways of holding our hands together, clasped (preferred for me) or (forget the name) up and forward. I choose to ignore until our bishops and priest declare not to do so because we're here to love each other, not bicker, argue, etc., as Fr. Conner said this morning in the homily on EWTN. Most of the time I just hold my hands together if I'm standing next to my oldest son or wife without one of my little ones next to me. Hopefully I won't roast for it.

I totally agree poor sinner 7,
But what or where is EWTN?

Yes, every city in the world is named Corinth. But we don't need to bicker and argue about it.

CatherineOH · #**272** May 14, '12, 8:24 pm

EWTN.....got it.
I don't have a TV though.

CatherineOH · #**273** May 15, '12, 10:10 am

Ummmmm nor my own internet.
I use coffee shops, mostly..I can't have the volume on.

I'll earmark it so I can enjoy it when I am in hotels such as this week.
(traveling for my employment)

thewanderer · #**274** May 15, '12, 5:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moore11

I think we are ships passing in the night here. I don't find anyone who is talking about the things you are describing, I will say again. Of course those things are not the problem.
I'm not sure why we are even talking about them. What is it like at your parish? do many people hold hands? Do they hold hands with people they don't know every time the prayer is said?
For the sake of this discussion I think we can all agree that hand holding in extraordinary circumstances is ok. Ad with holding say, a child's hand in Mass or a wife.
I'm not sure you are familiar with the practice as it is being described.

I am very familiar with the abuse you are talking about, although it is currently not really an issue at the parish I attend. My point was that the way people were talking about it could be confusing, so maybe people should be clear that they are talking about the abuse being wrong, not the practice in and of itself.

Annabelle Marie · #**275** May 15, '12, 10:12 pm

hmm...my daily parish is pretty traditional and yet I see people hold their hands palms up during the Our Father.....only a few people hold hands....but we usually have a lot of space between us. What about doing the sign of the cross during the "forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life?" It seems like people do a lot of things that are not necessarily listed in the GIRM.....what are we to do with all that?

Or those that detest the holding of the hands....stating it's not in the liturgy but totally disregard the sign of peace....prefering....as one poster put it "give people the cold shoulder". It seems like we pick and choose based on our preferences...

Moore11 · #**276** May 15, '12, 10:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

I am very familiar with the abuse you are talking about, although it is currently not really an issue at the parish I attend. My point was that the way people were talking about it could be confusing, so maybe people should be clear that they are talking about the abuse being wrong, not the practice in and of itself.

You have made this point several times and several times I have agreed with you. I dont recall anyone on this thread being confused as to what we were talking about.

********* Disclaimer:

We are not talking of someone holding the hand of a child, a person in pain, a loved one, or anything of the sort.

Hopefully that will help.

Seems kind of common sense to me.

Moore11 · #**277** May 15, '12, 10:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

hmm...my daily parish is pretty traditional and yet I see people hold their hands palms up during the Our Father.....only a few people hold hands....but we usually have a lot of space between us. What about doing the sign of the cross during the "forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life?" It seems like people do a lot of things that are not necessarily listed in the GIRM.....what are we to do with all that?

Or those that detest the holding of the hands....stating it's not in the liturgy but totally disregard the sign of peace....prefering....as one poster put it "give people the cold shoulder". It seems like we pick and choose based on our preferences...

Well for one doing the sign of the cross does not impose on anyone else. As to anyone who would "cold shoulder" at the sign of peace with no other reason than offending someone... This is a long thread, I don't recall anyone doing that but I would agree with you that that would be a bad bad thing.

mariyka · #**278** May 16, '12, 5:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moore11

I'm still waiting for red rover to send someone right over at the Lords Prayer.

Now I'm really going to have a hard time keeping a straight face when we say the Our Father during Mass. Thanks a lot!

Diana Catherine · #**279** May 16, '12, 10:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moore11

I'm still waiting for red rover to send someone right over at the Lords Prayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariyka

Now I'm really going to have a hard time keeping a straight face when we say the Our Father during Mass. Thanks a lot!

ditto

Diana Catherine · #**280** May 16, '12, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

hmm...my daily parish is pretty traditional and yet I see people hold their hands palms up during the Our Father.....only a few people hold hands....but we usually have a lot of space between us. What about doing the sign of the cross during the "forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life?" It seems like people do a lot of things that are not necessarily listed in the GIRM.....what are we to do with all that?

Or those that detest the holding of the hands....stating it's not in the liturgy but totally disregard the sign of peace....prefering....as one poster put it "give people the cold shoulder". It seems like we pick and choose based on our preferences...

I agree, it is wrong to give someone the cold shoulder during the sign of peace. Even a smile and a nod is a good thing.

I think the people that hold their hands up during the Our Father would probably hold someone's hand if someone was near and would hold hands with them.

They tend to be of the same camp.

The other things you mention are private devotions and do not disturb another's prayer.Someone could make the sign of the cross all they want when in the church or during mass and it isn't hurting anyone else.That is their private devotion but if they tried to make other people do the same thing or if they turned and started making the sign of the cross over someone else and disturbing that person's prayer that would not be good and it would disturb the attention our Lord is to be receiving.

IMHO, I believe it will come to a point where priests will need to step in and say something so others are allowed to pray.

The sign of peace is the time to turn to our neighbors and offer the love of Christ.

Moore11 · #**281** May 16, '12, 11:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diana Catherine

I agree, it is wrong to give someone the cold shoulder during the sign of peace. Even a smile and a nod is a good thing.

I think the people that hold their hands up during the Our Father would probably hold someone's hand if someone was near and would hold hands with them.

They tend to be of the same camp.

The other things you mention are private devotions and do not disturb another's prayer.Someone could make the sign of the cross all they want when in the church or during mass and it isn't hurting anyone else.That is their private devotion but if they tried to make other people do the same thing or if they turned and started making the sign of the cross over someone else and disturbing that person's prayer that would not be good and it would disturb the attention our Lord is to be receiving.

IMHO, I believe it will come to a point where priests will need to step in and say something so others are allowed to pray.

The sign of peace is the time to turn to our neighbors and offer the love of Christ.

The sign of peace is a liturgical practice that should be obeyed. To not do so would be grave. I could understand someone with say, mental or physical situations that may not lead to them grabbing the hand of someone who had sneezed into it, but some sort of recognition and "peace be with you" should be practiced at all times.
If someone cold shouldered me I would calmly talk to them later. There may be a reason. But most likely my shin would hurt from my wife kicking me, she hates it when I say things to people.

KJFM · #**282** May 16, '12, 11:55 am

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/h...ds_at_mass.htm

Annabelle Marie · #**283** May 16, '12, 12:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diana Catherine

I agree, it is wrong to give someone the cold shoulder during the sign of peace. Even a smile and a nod is a good thing.

I think the people that hold their hands up during the Our Father would probably hold someone's hand if someone was near and would hold hands with them.

They tend to be of the same camp.

The other things you mention are private devotions and do not disturb another's prayer.Someone could make the sign of the cross all they want when in the church or during mass and it isn't hurting anyone else.That is their private devotion but if they tried to make other people do the same thing or if they turned and started making the sign of the cross over someone else and disturbing that person's prayer that would not be good and it would disturb the attention our Lord is to be receiving.

IMHO, I believe it will come to a point where priests will need to step in and say something so others are allowed to pray.

The sign of peace is the time to turn to our neighbors and offer the love of Christ.

I put in about the other stuff because some people will say holding hands is not specified in the GIRM and therefore we should NOT be doing it. My point was that there are other things that are not specified in the GIRM but others so it....so where do you draw the line?

I like this from EWTN:

This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one's peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don't participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery.

**Tantum ergo** · #**284** May 16, '12, 1:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

I put in about the other stuff because some people will say holding hands is not specified in the GIRM and therefore we should NOT be doing it. My point was that there are other things that are not specified in the GIRM but others so it....so where do you draw the line?

I like this from EWTN:

This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one's peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don't participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery.

I like it too. But quite frankly (and by no means is this the case in every parish, obviously), the people who have been belligerent have been the hand holders, not the ones who wish not to hold. And the people who get irritated or irritate others., . the same.

We all have different experiences depending on where we are.

But I agree 100% that whether you want to 'hold my hand' or not, the issue is not over what 'I want' but over what 'we' want.

If John and Jane both want to hold hands. . .fine.
If John wants to and Jane does not. . .
Then Jane smiles and nods at John. John, despite wanting to hold hands, does NOT get irritated or try to grab Jane's hand or turn his back on her later at the Kiss of Peace or audibly wonder why so many 'cold people' come to Mass because they're HYPOCRITES etc.

And if John doesn't want to hold hands and Jane does. . .
Then John smiles and nods at Jane. John, despite not wanting to hold hands, does NOT get irritated, turn away from Jane in a huff then and later, or audibly wonder why so many 'touchy feely' people want to louse up Mass with their crazy gestures.

Sound good?

Moore11 · #**285** May 16, '12, 1:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

I like it too. But quite frankly (and by no means is this the case in every parish, obviously), the people who have been belligerent have been the hand holders, not the ones who wish not to hold. And the people who get irritated or irritate others., . the same.

We all have different experiences depending on where we are.

But I agree 100% that whether you want to 'hold my hand' or not, the issue is not over what 'I want' but over what 'we' want.

If John and Jane both want to hold hands. . .fine.
If John wants to and Jane does not. . .
Then Jane smiles and nods at John. John, despite wanting to hold hands, does NOT get irritated or try to grab Jane's hand or turn his back on her later at the Kiss of Peace or audibly wonder why so many 'cold people' come to Mass because they're HYPOCRITES etc.

And if John doesn't want to hold hands and Jane does. . .
Then John smiles and nods at Jane. John, despite not wanting to hold hands, does NOT get irritated, turn away from Jane in a huff then and later, or audibly wonder why so many 'touchy feely' people want to louse up Mass with their crazy gestures.

Sound good?

How does one belligerently NOT hold hands? The assault (I know I know flowery language) is coming from the person sticking their hand all up in your space.

All the stuff about john, jane, cold shoulders, forced handholding, slights, offending, only strengthens the point that if it is this complicated, perhaps we should just pray, and concentrate on the altar.