Dangerous biblical study

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

The issue might be veneration of the saints.

Here are a couple passages in the Old Testament showing people receiving special honour without any idolatry being involved:

From Genesis chapter 23:

[7] Abraham rose and bowed to the Hittites, the people of the land.
[8] And he said to them, "If you are willing that I should bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and entreat for me Ephron the son of Zohar,
[9] that he may give me the cave of Mach-pe'lah, which he owns; it is at the end of his field. For the full price let him give it to me in your presence as a possession for a burying place."

From 1 Chronicles chapter 29:

[9] Then the people rejoiced because these had given willingly, for with a whole heart they had offered freely to the LORD; David the king also rejoiced greatly.
[10] Therefore David blessed the LORD in the presence of all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed art thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever."
(His words addressed to God continue for some lines.)
[20] Then David said to all the assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king.
[21] And they performed sacrifices to the LORD, and on the next day offered burnt offerings to the LORD, a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel;
[22a] and they ate and drank before the LORD on that day with great gladness.

In Italy Jesus is the 7th personage to be prayed to and God is less than that. I think that is not only wrong but very dangerous.

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by robwar

From what you are writing on here I take it that you have complete devotion so that is why all you do it mock other's points when they bring up facts from history and scripture. I feel sorry for you. So someone who is devoted to God can come on a Catholic forum and mock and make fun of others, have nothing to offer about why they believe what they believe. Really,
I'll pass on your so called complete devotion to God.

Hmm sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I just read in Matthew that we should pray to God through Jesus Christ not through a Saint or anyone else for that matter. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

In Italy Jesus is the 7th personage to be prayed to and God is less than that. I think that is not only wrong but very dangerous.

Why have you not commented on the Bible passages I cited?

Also, on what source do you base the claim that Italians give Jesus such short shrift?

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

The issue might be veneration of the saints.

Here are a couple passages in the Old Testament showing people receiving special honour without any idolatry being involved:

From Genesis chapter 23:

[7] Abraham rose and bowed to the Hittites, the people of the land.
[8] And he said to them, "If you are willing that I should bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and entreat for me Ephron the son of Zohar,
[9] that he may give me the cave of Mach-pe'lah, which he owns; it is at the end of his field. For the full price let him give it to me in your presence as a possession for a burying place."

From 1 Chronicles chapter 29:

[9] Then the people rejoiced because these had given willingly, for with a whole heart they had offered freely to the LORD; David the king also rejoiced greatly.
[10] Therefore David blessed the LORD in the presence of all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed art thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever."
(His words addressed to God continue for some lines.)
[20] Then David said to all the assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king.
[21] And they performed sacrifices to the LORD, and on the next day offered burnt offerings to the LORD, a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel;
[22a] and they ate and drank before the LORD on that day with great gladness.

I guess I look at the saints as messengers but if I were sending a message to my father through Canada Post I wouldn't start off by saying Dear Canada Post. You know what I am trying to get at here?

[pablope]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

Ah but where in the bible does it say that it is acceptable to pray to anyone other than God? In fact in hundreds of verses it says just the opposite. God is a jealous God and demands our complete devotion.

Firstly...are you aware of the meaning and use of the word "prayer" to a catholic and protestant?


As for your bible verse.......Job 42....God actually commands someone to be prayed for.....7 After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.


And James 5........13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

I just read in Matthew that we should pray to God through Jesus Christ not through a Saint or anyone else for that matter.

Please give us the chapter and verse for Christ's statement that Christians may not request the intercession of St. Mary and the other saints.

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Why have you not commented on the Bible passages I cited?

Also, on what source do you base the claim that Italians give Jesus such short shrift?

I saw it in a documentary. Sorry what scriptures. I have been on multiple threads and the notifcation process on this site needs updating.

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Please give us the chapter and verse for Christ's statement that Christians may not request the intercession of St. Mary and the other saints.

Oh sorry you want Christ to tell you all the people you can't pray to?

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

I guess I look at the saints as messengers but if I were sending a message to my father through Canada Post I wouldn't start off by saying Dear Canada Post. You know what I am trying to get at here?

Well, Canada Post is an institution, while saints are real people who deserve some respect. Catholics/Orthodox request their intercession because those who have gone before us in faith no longer commit sin and, as James 5:16b states, "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects".

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by pablope

Firstly...are you aware of the meaning and use of the word "prayer" to a catholic and protestant?


As for your bible verse.......Job 42....God actually commands someone to be prayed for.....7 After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.


And James 5........13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don't see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

I saw it in a documentary.

I'd be interested to know how they arrived at that conclusion, though.

For the sake of argument, let's say that Italians do give Jesus very short shrift. This doesn't mean that requesting the intercession of the saints should be abandoned, but rather that Italians should be taught to implement the practice better.

Sorry what scriptures. I have been on multiple threads and the notifcation process on this site needs updating.

The ones from Genesis and 1 Chronicles. But I see you've already said something about them in another post.

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don't see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

So when praying to the Saints you are actually praying for the Saints to pray for you? Is that what I am understanding here? Because through the ransom sacrifice we have the ability to pray directly to God. Why take the round about way? We are to give glory to God not to the Saints. If you live a good life and then die do you want people to pray to you? I doubt it. That is not your place and you know it. None of the disciples and definitely not Mary would be comfortable having people praying to them that's for sure.
I am not saying that they shouldn't be respected and spoken of and listened to and their example followed I am just saying you shouldn't be praying to them that's all.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

Oh sorry you want Christ to tell you all the people you can't pray to?

No, I was asking for the verse instructing us not to request the intercession of St. Mary and the other saints in general.

[Riddle me this]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

I'd be interested to know how they arrived at that conclusion, though.

For the sake of argument, let's say that Italians do give Jesus very short shrift. This doesn't mean that requesting the intercession of the saints should be abandoned, but rather that Italians should be taught to implement the practice better.



The ones from Genesis and 1 Chronicles. But I see you've already said something about them in another post.

Um...you know where the Vatican is right? Rome, Italy? If they don't know who is going to teach them?

[pablope]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don't see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

Huh......Jod did not have to pray for them...God commanded it.....from verse 8...... My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer

Praying to saints is praying for intercessions.....intercessory prayer.....Job was going to do intercessory prayers...so that they will be forgiven.

The point of this is humility....going through someone to be forgiven requires humility.

You must have missed James 5.......And James 5........13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.