Dangerous biblical study

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by Boywonder23k

Someone said something about perspective can not be invented hundreds or thousands of years later.... Could you be so kind as to trace for me the bodily assumption of Mary to the first 400 years of Church History? Or maybe Papal infallibility? Its just amazing to me that Catholics engage in argumentation that is so easily fired back at them.

The ones that are arguing are either missing the point, or that's just the only way they know how to communicate, or both.

Asking for "evidence" of the claims of the Church really isn't fair because it is based on faith which is, by definition, knowing things we cannot see. If we could measure these things scientifically it would be by faith. We cannot scientifically prove God, or that Jesus can forgive sins, but we accept them on faith. Don't pick and choose which Catholic beliefs you require proof of.

Heuchler sorry I didn't mean to skip your question but lost track of all the people posting. Protestants HAVE to study the bible so that we can know God. We don't have any other source to go to besides subjective natural revelation. Therefore it makes complete since for a Protestant of any denomination to Study the bible because it is our only special revelation. Of course we do take the risk of twisting scripture but that is the risk that we MUST take because there is no other recourse. We must study. We must work and do the best we can. However for Catholics you truly believe the Church is Infallible. The Church determines and defines what "Tradition" is (since no one else can really pin it down). The Church decides what scripture means. The Church decides absolutely everything. So then why read the Bible and run the risk of falling on the wrong side of history and disagreeing with the Church? There is no reward here. It would be better to simply stick with the catechism in my humble opinion. That's what I was initially trying to understand before we all got caught up in this quasi debate or whatever lol

The reason you don't want to miss out on scripture, is that it is not the surface level that gives you the intimacy with Jesus. It is the deeper levels, the allegorical, the contemplative... these levels are where real transformation comes in. The literal meaning is good, but if one fights over it, one has not yet absorbed the deeper meanings.

It's like passing a test about a great teacher, compared to just walking with the teacher. Totally different experience, and we need people to do both in the Body of Christ.

Alan

[Shannon9791]

Originally Posted by Boywonder23k

Now to shannon. Thank you! That was the substantive answer to my question that I have been begging for the last two days. You addressed the heart of my question in a polite and genuine manner. Appreciate it.

If you could please clarify for me....

You said that even if you DID study and found sola fide to be true or the deuterocanonical books to be apocrypha you would still submit to the Church's authority.

This to me is absolutely astounding. So in the case of the deuterocanonical books no matter how many errors are in them no matter how many historical archeological or logical arguments are presented you would still swallow your intuition and bend the knee to 70 people in Trent? I am curious. On your view is their ANY evidence at all that would be able to change your mind? Do you believe that kind of thinking is healthy for a person to submit to something that deep down he doesn't believe but HAS to in the name of Mother Church?
. How can you just simply say "welp, other people have already decided for me"? This has nothing to do with the post but what personally led you to believe this particular institution was worthy of such fanatical devotion that can over ride reason and evidence?

You have already given me a very good answer and I don't think I will get a better one. I guess now I'm jus curious as to how you came to think this way. Your "personal testimony" as we Protestants call it

And no Rob. The catholic Church did not make scripture and the Catholic Church did not make scripture authoritative.... God did. Scriptures are authoritative because they are God breathed. Not because any Church said so.

Thanks again everyone this is my first post and it has been a nice experience over all.

Why did I say I submit to the authority of the Church?

I don't bend my knee to the men in Trent, nor will I ever. I bend my knee to the One who gave them the authority to lead His Church. Again, that's where you miss the point, sadly.

Here's how I do things when I study the Bible. I read, pray, and see if how I see things line up with what the Church teaching. Why? Because the Catholic Church offers the most logical way of viewing things in light of Biblical interpretation. Your beef seems to be more with the inclusion of the DC's, and they were included b/c they were part of the Septuagint, which was a JEWISH canon. Jerome didn't think they were inspired, you got that much right, but again, he put them in his vulgate BECAUSE HE SUBMITTED TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!! So consider that for just a second, if someone as intelligent as Jerome obviously was can openly disagree with the Church, but yet still submit to Her authority, what is stopping someone like you?

My biggest beef with non-Catholics is their hard headed-ness, and you seem to enjoy that symptom just as much as anyone. So I am now going to ask you a few questions, and I'd appreciate it if you answered each, plus the very first one I asked at the beginning of my post (that one's the most important):

How many years of Bible Study have you committed yourself to?

Is your interpretation 150% right?

Are you infallible?

If you are not infallible, can you concede that the Catholic Church, in its 1600 years of Scripture interpretation (the canon was officially codified around 400 A.D. give or take a few years), could be right?

How can someone who is not infallible (me) know that your interpretation is better than someone else's, like for instance, Joel Osteen?

And finally, how did you come to "know" all that you do about the Catholic Church?

[robwar]

Originally Posted by Riddle me this

Hmm sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I just read in Matthew that we should pray to God through Jesus Christ not through a Saint or anyone else for that matter. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

my feelings are not hurt!

[Michael Francis]