"If straight Christians are so offended by Gay people, why don't they just stop having them?"

[ekk1]

Originally Posted by Gaber

Parents have children and some of them, about 3.5%, are gay. How is that political?

Kinsey first estimated it at about 10% Conservative organizations like to put the number at 1-3%. The 2000 US Census reported 1% of households claiming to be gay couples. Most experts put the number close to 10%. On average, in carefully worded surveys, the average American thinks that 20% of people are gay in the US, which is a very interesting result.

All of this has been collated by Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what...ation-gay.aspx

All that we really know is that it is probably a lot higher than 1% and a lot lower than 20%. With the support of people like the President, and the increasing acceptance of gay marriage, we are likely to get a better handle on the actual numbers. In 1992 38% of Americans believed that homosexuality should be considered and acceptable alternative lifestyle. In 2002, that number was 51%. If you extrapolate that trend forward, then the number is likely to be more like two thirds of Americans today accept homosexuality as an acceptable life style.

According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 78% of Americans are Christian, with 23% of them being Catholic. If one compares the number of adults who accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle to the percentage of Christians, and the percentage of Catholics, it is fair to say that most American Christians and many American Catholics accept homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle.

These facts will make it easier to get more accurate estimates of the number of homosexuals in the US>

[Holly3278]

Homosexuality cannot be diagnosed in the womb. Homosexuality usually doesn't present itself until adolescence. That said, even if I did know I was pregnant with a homosexual person, I still would not murder him or her. I would, however, raise him or her to be chaste.

[J_Peterson]

Originally Posted by fix

Off topic but capital punishment and abortion are not of the same moral weight.

If you are allowed to make these distinctions with regards to taking a human life, why can't there be distinctions within sexuality. Can you see the difference between a promiscous homosexual and one that is in a loving, monogomous, long term relationship? How about married homosexual couples that adopt children? How is that any different than an infertile heterosexual couple that adopts?

[Neofight]

Originally Posted by fix

Homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. Heterosexuality is ordered toward the good. That is a philosophical point that gets overlooked and minimized too often.

I see people eager to minimize the normalization of what is disordered under the banner of charity and tolerance. I see people misdirecting the issue constantly by bringing up other sins and social ills.



Off topic but capital punishment and abortion are not of the same moral weight.

Really, so there is a hierachy of evil? Abortion is more evil than genocide?

And,because hetrosexuality is ordered toward the good and homosexuality is not, adultery, or rape, is less evil than homosexual sex.

Hmmm, I'm sorry, but that argument is not going to have me re-thinking James 2:12.

[wendy w.]

Originally Posted by Holly3278

Homosexuality cannot be diagnosed in the womb. Homosexuality usually doesn't present itself until adolescence. That said, even if I did know I was pregnant with a homosexual person, I still would not murder him or her. I would, however, raise him or her to be chaste.

Yet another good point, because in our society today many children are killed because they are not perfect(birth defects, etc). I think this original statement was just one more way to attack the faith, I don't think anyone in this forum is saying they hate gay people.

[fix]

Originally Posted by J_Peterson

If you are allowed to make these distinctions with regards to taking a human life, why can't there be distinctions within sexuality.

They are not my private opinion.

The state has the authority to take the life of a guilty person. The state has no right to kill an innocent person.

Can you see the difference between a promiscous homosexual and one that is in a loving, monogomous, long term relationship?

No. Why do using the terms monogamy and loving transform bad acts into good acts?

You just as easily say promiscuity is loving and consenting and much else.

How about married homosexual couples that adopt children? How is that any different than an infertile heterosexual couple that adopts?

Huge difference. One is an actual mother and father.

[fix]

Originally Posted by Neofight

Really, so there is a hierachy of evil?

There are mortal sins that are worse than other mortal sins, sure. See the CCC.

Abortion is more evil than genocide?

Did I say that?

And,because hetrosexuality is ordered toward the good and homosexuality is not, adultery, or rape, is less evil than homosexual sex.

You are confusing acts with inclinations. I said the homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. This is what the Church teaches.

Hmmm, I'm sorry, but that argument is not going to have me re-thinking James 2:12.

You might want to start with Church teaching.

[GEddie]

Originally Posted by Gaber

For instance, straight heterosexual Christians?

That sector isn't demanding special rights.

[Kenny Kamel]

Originally Posted by Gaber

Given your "signature," it is not surprising that you say what you do. How do you see that statement as mucking anything up? It simply points to the awkwardness of the situation in that those who consider homosexuality a deviance nevertheless have to deal with the fact that it occurs. Of course it is ironic. A the confusion, from my perspective, not being "gay,"btw, is that the confusion is on the part of those who militate against homosexuality as a condition of bith.And of course I agree wit the "do no harm" part of moral considerations, but generally speaking, people who have no homosexual family member or friend, or who are pious without experience, are very nieve and tout their limited perception of dogma instead of expereince and compassion. You may not be one of those, but I've encountered many who are simply dagmatic to the point of bing draconian. I personally don't go for that.

Take your crusade elsewhere, you're mucking this thread up.

[Neofight]

Originally Posted by fix

There are mortal sins that are worse than other mortal sins, sure. See the CCC.




Did I say that?



You are confusing acts with inclinations. I said the homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. This is what the Church teaches.



You might want to start with Church teaching.

And you, are confusing the "gravity of sin" (CCC1858) with one sin being "worse than another". In the scenario I painted, the abortion and capital punishment are the the same sin (murder). The CCC, in talking the gravity of sin, specifically cites the grave difference between different sins (using theft as opposed to murder as an example). And, in my second scenario, the unchasteness of homosexual sex and hetrosexual adultery is the same sin.

I subscribe to the teachings of the Church, but I also strive to keep them in the proper context.

Pax

[oldbrit2009]

Originally Posted by ekk1

Kinsey first estimated it at about 10% Conservative organizations like to put the number at 1-3%. The 2000 US Census reported 1% of households claiming to be gay couples. Most experts put the number close to 10%. On average, in carefully worded surveys, the average American thinks that 20% of people are gay in the US, which is a very interesting result.

All of this has been collated by Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what...ation-gay.aspx

All that we really know is that it is probably a lot higher than 1% and a lot lower than 20%. With the support of people like the President, and the increasing acceptance of gay marriage, we are likely to get a better handle on the actual numbers. In 1992 38% of Americans believed that homosexuality should be considered and acceptable alternative lifestyle. In 2002, that number was 51%. If you extrapolate that trend forward, then the number is likely to be more like two thirds of Americans today accept homosexuality as an acceptable life style.

According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 78% of Americans are Christian, with 23% of them being Catholic. If one compares the number of adults who accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle to the percentage of Christians, and the percentage of Catholics, it is fair to say that most American Christians and many American Catholics accept homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle.

These facts will make it easier to get more accurate estimates of the number of homosexuals in the US>

Ekk1,
Perhaps you are not aware that the Kinsey report has been thoroughly discredited.

[J_Peterson]

Originally Posted by fix

No. Why do using the terms monogamy and loving transform bad acts into good acts?

You just as easily say promiscuity is loving and consenting and much else.

This is a good point. I guess because monogamy is more chaste than promiscuity. It's not so much that you are choosing one person to be with, you are rejecting everybody else. This brings it further away from selfishness (the root of all sin in my opinion) and toward something that is shared. We need to move away from the idea that homosexuals act stictly out of lust, they can and do fall in love just like straight people.

Huge difference. One is an actual mother and father.

So only a female and a male can raise a child? What about single fathers or single mothers?

[ekk1]

Originally Posted by oldbrit2009

Ekk1,
Perhaps you are not aware that the Kinsey report has been thoroughly discredited.

All I said was that he was the first to try to quantify the phenomenon. There have been other studies since. The largely accepted number is around 10%. Religious groups with an agenda try to make a case for 1-3%. Gay groups with an agenda would put it higher.

The most interesting number to me is that the average American thinks that about 20% of the population is homosexual. That is according to a Gallup poll. I wonder where that thinking comes from.

[mcrow]

Originally Posted by ekk1

All I said was that he was the first to try to quantify the phenomenon. There have been other studies since. The largely accepted number is around 10%. Religious groups with an agenda try to make a case for 1-3%. Gay groups with an agenda would put it higher.

The most interesting number to me is that the average American thinks that about 20% of the population is homosexual. That is according to a Gallup poll. I wonder where that thinking comes from.

It's prettty hard to tell how many "gays" there are because a good number of them identify as "gay" at one point and not at another point. I know more than one person that claimed to be gay so that they could be part of the hippster crowd they hang out with but then when the group broke up they mysteriously were not gay anymore.

There is a number of people who switch how they identify over the course of their lives so it's pretty hard to put an accurate number out there.

[TarkanAttila]

Let's break it down:

"If straight Christians are so offended by Gay people

First of all, there is no such thing as a "gay" person. "Gay" is a politico-social identity that attempts to normalise same-sex attractions. Not all homosexuals are "gay".

Second, who said we're offended? Homosexuality is a disorder, yes, but we aren't offended by it, any more than we would be by any other mental, psychological, or physical disorder. Mentally healthy Christians might be a bit taken aback by homosexuality, but we're not offended. We want to help them.

why don't they just stop having them?"

You cannot have homosexual children (never mind gay children). Although, like any psychological disorder, you as a parent can unconsciously cause same-sex attraction disorder. It happens. It is not done on purpose. It is something of an accident - usually.

But it's not normal. It is problematic. It does need treatment, as much as unconscious anger, alcoholism, commitment problems, and other psychological disorders ought to be treated. The same goes with gender identity problems.