If you don't want children... - Page 3

JacarandaPurple · #31 May 13, '12, 1:16 pm

Is it a personal attack to call a selfish attitude "selfish?"

Stop being angry for a moment and evaluate what I said. Prove me wrong.

How is your attitude toward raising children not self-centered/selfish? Explain that.

And again I ask, to what in your past can you connect your distaste for having children of your own? You don't seem to want to enter religious life, and even those who do will usually say they want family life, but want/need God more. You are not saying that or anything like it.

If you evaluate what I said and find answers for it (or against it) you'll understand yourself and your relations with other people better.

PumpkinSeed · #32 May 13, '12, 3:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacarandaPurple

Is it a personal attack to call a selfish attitude "selfish?"

Stop being angry for a moment and evaluate what I said. Prove me wrong.

How is your attitude toward raising children not self-centered/selfish? Explain that.

And again I ask, to what in your past can you connect your distaste for having children of your own? You don't seem to want to enter religious life, and even those who do will usually say they want family life, but want/need God more. You are not saying that or anything like it.

If you evaluate what I said and find answers for it (or against it) you'll understand yourself and your relations with other people better.

I am religious and I do lead a religious life.

If you told me that you didn't want to own a dog and I told you that was selfish, what would you say?

Now that was just a hypothetical example. Obviously pets and children cannot be compared.

But why would not having children make me selfish? Does that mean priests and nuns are selfish too because they're not putting their reproductive organs to work?

Anybody who doesn't want kids is automatically selfish? I think it would be selfish to have a child you DID NOT WANT. That wouldn't be fair to the child now would it?

PumpkinSeed · #33 May 13, '12, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacarandaPurple

Is it a personal attack to call a selfish attitude "selfish?"

Stop being angry for a moment and evaluate what I said. Prove me wrong.

How is your attitude toward raising children not self-centered/selfish? Explain that.

And again I ask, to what in your past can you connect your distaste for having children of your own? You don't seem to want to enter religious life, and even those who do will usually say they want family life, but want/need God more. You are not saying that or anything like it.

If you evaluate what I said and find answers for it (or against it) you'll understand yourself and your relations with other people better.

It's not out of being selfish. I said in a previous post that children deserve the best. the best care, the best love the best upbringing. and I believe if you're going to have a child it should be carefully planned so that the person is ready and happy and wanting to bring that child into the world.

Because I do not want children, it would be unfair to the child for me to bring them into this world. Some people are better at being parents than others. I don't have a problem with kids. I like kids. I have babysat before quite a few times. Kids are fun to be around, but I just don't want any myself. I want to mainly focus my life on helping animals. There are tons of children in the world who already need homes. Me not bringing a child into the world isn't going to do any harm, besides, id never have a child outside of marriage anyways.

I've never felt that 'motherly instinct' to want to bear my own young. I do not know why so don't ask. Even as a child I was asked "how many kids do you want when you grow up", I said none then and I still say none now. I just have no want to have children. I have tons of pets that I have raised since they were babies and I'm happy to keep it that way. I am getting a license to be a professional groomer, but I'm also thinking on becoming a rehabilitator or working in a preserve for endangered species. I don't see a problem with not having children.

If you want to have children, go for it. I wish the best for you and your children. All I know is that I don't want any and I do not believe that makes me selfish.

Calliso · #34 May 13, '12, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

No, but I believe that every one of us is born with a desire to reproduce inside of us. It's a God-given gift. Some people *seem* to have been left out of this, but I believe it's because of a failure in THEIR OWN parents, sometimes the result of abuse in childhood, or other family dysfunctions. Have you explored this with your counselor?

Hmm not sure if this is really true. I mean yes in quite a few cases. But there are some people who had perfectly fine childhoods and everything and still have no desire to reproduce. I think some people are genuinely born without that desire. Of course though I do think it is probably something the OP should bring up to her counselor just in case. But just saying no desire to have kids doesn;t mean something is wrong with someone.

exoflare · #35 May 13, '12, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I am religious and I do lead a religious life.

If you told me that you didn't want to own a dog and I told you that was selfish, what would you say?

Now that was just a hypothetical example. Obviously pets and children cannot be compared.

But why would not having children make me selfish? Does that mean priests and nuns are selfish too because they're not putting their reproductive organs to work?

Anybody who doesn't want kids is automatically selfish? I think it would be selfish to have a child you DID NOT WANT. That wouldn't be fair to the child now would it?

I think you're misconstruing what the other poster said. The idea is not that having no children in itself is selfish, but wanting to get married and deliberately avoid having children result from the marriage.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to get after you at all. In fact, I struggle with a similar aversion to the idea of ever having children and I can't understand why so many people would actually want to.

PatriceA · #36 May 13, '12, 3:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

What should you do? Should you stop dating completely and totally forget about marriage? I know that birth control is a sin in the church, and that you are not allowed to get married unless you have kids, so is the only option to just stop dating for the rest of your life? What would you do?

If I am Catholic and have no desire what so ever for children, I'd first seek out the advice of a priest. I would not continue dating nor plan to get married until I properly discerned God's will and my true vocation in life. I do not believe God would withhold one of the main requirements for fulfilling the marriage vocation if that was His will for my life. In other words, if my vocation is marriage, He's not going to have me NOT desire to have children as much as you say you do not. I may have apprehensions about being a parent, but the fundamental desires of my vocation will be instilled in me so I may live out my vocation to the best of my abilities. If I am adament that I do not want children, then I think I haven't properly discerned that marriage is my vocation and I would refrain from dating until I was certain it was my vocation.

PumpkinSeed · #37 May 13, '12, 3:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by exoflare

I think you're misconstruing what the other poster said. The idea is not that having no children in itself is selfish, but wanting to get married and deliberately avoid having children result from the marriage.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to get after you at all. In fact, I struggle with a similar aversion to the idea of ever having children and I can't understand why so many people would actually want to.

Oh. Well in that case, I would love to get married and live my life happily with my husband. Share our lives together, have pets, travel, explore. I just don't want kids. I'm positive that people can have good marriages without kids. I don't know anyone who is married and hasn't had kids but I'm sure that I wouldn't be a first.

Calliso · #38 May 13, '12, 4:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

It's not out of being selfish. I said in a previous post that children deserve the best. the best care, the best love the best upbringing. and I believe if you're going to have a child it should be carefully planned so that the person is ready and happy and wanting to bring that child into the world.

Because I do not want children, it would be unfair to the child for me to bring them into this world. Some people are better at being parents than others. I don't have a problem with kids. I like kids. I have babysat before quite a few times. Kids are fun to be around, but I just don't want any myself. I want to mainly focus my life on helping animals. There are tons of children in the world who already need homes. Me not bringing a child into the world isn't going to do any harm, besides, id never have a child outside of marriage anyways.

I've never felt that 'motherly instinct' to want to bear my own young. I do not know why so don't ask. Even as a child I was asked "how many kids do you want when you grow up", I said none then and I still say none now. I just have no want to have children. I have tons of pets that I have raised since they were babies and I'm happy to keep it that way. I am getting a license to be a professional groomer, but I'm also thinking on becoming a rehabilitator or working in a preserve for endangered species. I don't see a problem with not having children.

If you want to have children, go for it. I wish the best for you and your children. All I know is that I don't want any and I do not believe that makes me selfish.

Totally agree with this. Just because someone says they do not want kids doesn;t mean they are selfish.

sw85 · #39 May 13, '12, 4:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

What should you do? Should you stop dating completely and totally forget about marriage? I know that birth control is a sin in the church, and that you are not allowed to get married unless you have kids, so is the only option to just stop dating for the rest of your life? What would you do?

You would need to reevaluate your attitude toward marriage. It isn't about you or what you want, as I explain here, and the attitude that it's all about you is one pretty much explicitly contrary to the Christian faith. Let him who would follow me deny himself and take up my cross, etc.

sw85 · #40 May 13, '12, 4:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

If you told me that you didn't want to own a dog and I told you that was selfish, what would you say?

Now that was just a hypothetical example. Obviously pets and children cannot be compared.

OK, but then why did you make the comparison?

There is no necessary connection between "me existing" and "me owning a dog," such that I am obligated to own a dog just by virtue of existing. There is a necessary connection between "me being married" and "me having children." Children are the point of marriage. There are circumstances in which it is OK to be married and never to have kids, for instance, previously undiscovered infertility. Those conditions are, obviously, exceptional -- i.e., the exception, not the rule. If you are resolved never, ever to have kids then perhaps that is a sign that you are called to a life of celibacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

But why would not having children make me selfish? Does that mean priests and nuns are selfish too because they're not putting their reproductive organs to work?

This, too, is a total non sequitur. No one thinks reproduction is the one highest good to which all others must be subordinated. But when you marry, it is pretty high on the list of your duties. Because, again, the point of marriage is children.

The analogy would not be nuns who don't have kids but nuns who don't do their duty -- i.e., nuns who become nuns and then refuse to do any of their duties as nuns, refuse to obey their mothers superior, refuse to obey the teachings of the Church, etc. The issue is either dutifulness (doing one's duty, i.e., having kids in marriage and doing whatever the charism of your order is if you're a nun) or delinquency (refusing to do one's duty, i.e., refusing to have kids in marriage or refusing to follow the charism of one's order if a nun).

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

Anybody who doesn't want kids is automatically selfish?

No one is saying that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I think it would be selfish to have a child you DID NOT WANT. That wouldn't be fair to the child now would it?

That sounds like a really good reason not to get married, on account of (again) children being the point of getting married.

PumpkinSeed · #41 May 13, '12, 5:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw85

OK, but then why did you make the comparison?

There is no necessary connection between "me existing" and "me owning a dog," such that I am obligated to own a dog just by virtue of existing. There is a necessary connection between "me being married" and "me having children." Children are the point of marriage. There are circumstances in which it is OK to be married and never to have kids, for instance, previously undiscovered infertility. Those conditions are, obviously, exceptional -- i.e., the exception, not the rule. If you are resolved never, ever to have kids then perhaps that is a sign that you are called to a life of celibacy.

This, too, is a total non sequitur. No one thinks reproduction is the one highest good to which all others must be subordinated. But when you marry, it is pretty high on the list of your duties. Because, again, the point of marriage is children.

The analogy would not be nuns who don't have kids but nuns who don't do their duty -- i.e., nuns who become nuns and then refuse to do any of their duties as nuns, refuse to obey their mothers superior, refuse to obey the teachings of the Church, etc. The issue is either dutifulness (doing one's duty, i.e., having kids in marriage and doing whatever the charism of your order is if you're a nun) or delinquency (refusing to do one's duty, i.e., refusing to have kids in marriage or refusing to follow the charism of one's order if a nun).

No one is saying that.

That sounds like a really good reason not to get married, on account of (again) children being the point of getting married.

I disagree. I think being married is about sharing a life with your spouse and being happy. Children are a product of marriage. They however did not make the marriage.

But I'll just say that we can agree to disagree. I just wanted to see peoples opinions, so I respect that.

JacarandaPurple · #42 May 13, '12, 5:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I disagree. I think being married is about sharing a life with your spouse and being happy.

Again....all about you. And I think your comparison of children to dogs was no accident.

underacloud · #43 May 13, '12, 5:33 pm

Dear PumpkinSeed,

There are several opinions expressed by other posters that you disagree with, but I think at the heart of them, they are trying to express the Church's own teaching on marriage, which has children very much at the heart of it. Here is a link to some discussion of marriage in the Catechisms...you'll need to scroll down a bit...

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

One of the relevant sections states this:

2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

So, children (at least being open to life) are one of the two ends of marriage, considered an "obligation", and seen as inseparable from the other end, which is the good of the spouses. This is the Church's position, so if you definitely intend not to have children, marriage would not seem to be the vocation for you.

If you wish marriage regardless, but want to remain faithful to Church teaching, then this is a relevant discussion with a) a priest and b) your counsellor.

All the best.

PumpkinSeed · #44 May 13, '12, 5:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacarandaPurple

Again....all about you. And I think your comparison of children to dogs was no accident.

Be nice please. It is NOT all about me. I just don't want kids. How is that my fault? How do you expect me to change the way I feel? I can't help the way I feel! It's just how I am.

I love pets

they make me so happy.

Go be grumpy elsewhere.

TheRealJuliane · #45 May 13, '12, 5:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I haven't told my counselor I didn't want children because I didn't think it was a big deal

To some people, it might not be. Is your counselor a Catholic? If not, you may as well not bother because the counselor won't see what the big deal is.