How should the OF be celebrated?

[japhy]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

Which parts of the mass pertain to them if the OF is all in English?

The parts of the Mass that pertain to us do not depend on the language. Read SC 54 again:

In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. [...]

SC 54.1 says that the vernacular may be extended to "those parts which pertain to the people", but SC 54.2 begins by saying Nevertheless. In other words, despite the vernacular being extended to the parts which pertain to the people, the faithful should still be able to say or sing in Latin the parts which pertain to them, even though those parts might regularly be in their vernacular.

[triumphguy]

And which parts of the mass pertain to them in Latin if the vernacular is used?

This could go round and round....

I have not seen anything definitive on this.

Again: I studied Latin for 6 years at school. I read Virgil and Homer in Latin. I served benediction for years when it was all in Latin.

But I'm still not convinced by anything I have read that in order to be a good Catholic you need to learn the parts of the mass in Latin.

It all comes down to this:

it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical
authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the
vernacular language is to be used

Prove me wrong and I'll email you a beverage of your choice

[Vico]

Originally Posted by NorthTexan88

I have not read all of the V2 documents, and there seems to be a toss up between this, but how is the OF suppose to be celebrated. Is it ad orietem? communion kneeling? high altar? some Latin? Im asking because I've only heard Latin once or twice while being Catholic.
Or is it the way it is done in your average suburban parish? I have heard both as the way it should be done, and the priest at my parish said that V2 did not mandate the high altar and all that....So which is it

P.S. Let's please not turn this into a bash V2 thing or anything like that, I just want to find out the answer.

The norms are to stand most of the time, with kneeling for Communion or during the Canon. Inaestimabile Donum:

11. The Church has always required from the faithful respect and reverence for the Eucharist at the moment of receiving it.
With regard to the manner of going to Communion, the faithful can receive it either kneeling or standing, in accordance with the norms ...

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2inaes.htm

Pope Paul VI:

8. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.

L'Osservatore Romano, Weekly Edition in English, 4 December 1969


http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

[ProVobis]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

Then 5 yrs later:

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Pope Paul VI gave permission for the selections in Jubilate Deo to be freely reprinted. The booklet was accompanied by a letter in which the Holy Father made this request of the bishops:

“Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them…. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Jubilate Deo contains simple chant settings in Latin of the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Agnus Dei. It also provides musical settings for the dialogues between priest and people, such as before the Preface, and the Ite Missa est, the response to the Prayer of the Faithful, and others.
...

http://www.adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

[triumphguy]

Thanks.

That's new to me.

Coffee or tea by internet? Or something a little stronger?

By the way. How come this IS news to me?

1974 was a long time ago!

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

The "competent territorial ecclesiastical authorit(ies)" in Canada and the USA have extended the vernacular to the whole of the OF mass. Therefore there is no need to learn the Latin responses, unless you want to participate in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

It's interesting in the SC the Latin haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio ("not rarely the use of the vernacular language") went to "frequently the use of the mother tongue" and then applied as all-vernacular all-the-time and "reversed" by Voluntati Obsequens all within 12 years.

[triumphguy]

I've been trying to figure out why Latin is not promoted and it still seems to come back to this:

it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used

[japhy]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Then 5 yrs later:
http://www.adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

I said that back in post 19.

[japhy]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

I've been trying to figure out why Latin is not promoted and it still seems to come back to this:

And I still think the answer is because the "Nevertheless" of SC 54.2 has been overlooked, in much the way you overlooked it (no offense).

Provideatur tamen ut christifideles etiam lingua latina partes Ordinarii Missae quae ad ipsos spectant possint simul dicere vel cantare.

[YoungTradCath]

Originally Posted by japhy

And I still think the answer is because the "Nevertheless" of SC 54.2 has been overlooked, in much the way you overlooked it (no offense).

Provideatur tamen ut christifideles etiam lingua latina partes Ordinarii Missae quae ad ipsos spectant possint simul dicere vel cantare.

I feel this is much more a (Catholic) cultural problem than it is with any arcane legislation minutiae in Sacrosancturm Concilium.

Most Catholics place little to no value on there being bright and clear cultural markers in their lives which separate them from other people, indeed other Christians. Things like abstinence, elementary knowledge of the unchanging parts of the Mass in Latin, appreciation of ritual solemnity, don't matter to most Catholics.

We currently have this odd, and in my opinion self-destructive and almost multiple personality-esque, sort of liturgical legislation, and larger than that, "Catholic identity" legislation. It goes a little like this:

"Uh, well, um, well, we'd like you, certainly, to do these things, or at least we think we do, at least *cough* officially *cough*: _____________ because this is the best option and is most in line with Catholic tradition. Cause Vatican II said so, but SSSHH don't tell anybody!

And, um, hey! we don't really know why, but here, we're gonna give you another set of options, much easier to satisfy, for no reason really: _____ and we know you're all going to do this so, PSST, just conveniently ignore and forget about the first set, and use the Spirit of Vatican II as the excuse! But we're going to leave the first set in the law as the "norm"--even though no one's gonna do it--just so we can save our consciences!"

It's funny that we are supposedly the most "educated" and "literate" people in world history, yet we know so little and practice our religion in such an "economical" way... Hm...



I feel this is almost a rejection of the Universal Call to Holiness, in a way. The laity want to be "empowered" or whatever, but when you start making demands of them, liturgical but mostly otherwise, they get cold feet.

[triumphguy]

But in 1974 was it the laity's fault that propagation of Latin didn't take place?

See now I know this I'm going to find the texts for the prayers and teach my kids.

All it takes for me to want to do some things is to know that I ought to do some things.

For example: In order to ride a motorbike I had to pass a test. So I wanted to pass the test.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by japhy

I said that back in post 19.

Yes you did. It was too late for me to delete the post when I found your post. Sorry.

I was, however, trying to draw a timeline and in my later post (#36) should have noted that Veterum Sapientia, which firmly expressed no vernacular in 1962, went to an all-vernacular in 1969, then settled with Voluntati Obsequens in 1974.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by YoungTradCath

And all the more reason to have it in the sacral language instead of the vulgar! Preserve our Greek remnant! I would also have quite liked if they retained the "sabaoth" of the Sanctus instead of translating it. It is good to have that remnant as well, I think.

Indeed. Sabaoth is still a very powerful and meaningful expression, which the Church has tried to preserve since the first century. Dominus Deus Sabaoth, beautiful and perfect.

[japhy]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

But in 1974 was it the laity's fault that propagation of Latin didn't take place?

No, it wasn't the laity's fault. It was the fault of bishops and priests and catechists, etc., who failed to act.

[superamazingman]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

And which parts of the mass pertain to them in Latin if the vernacular is used?

Hmmm.... it's so obvious, some are missing the this:

The council wanted everyone to know the parts of the Mass in Latin, because it did not intend for the entire Mass to always be in the vernacular.

It's so obvious! Otherwise, it wouldn't insist that the people know it in latin!