Holding hands durring the Our Father? - Page 4

InnocentFortune · #46 May 14, '12, 10:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

Hmmmm but the sign of peace is in the Mass and is there for a reason....and yet you want to ignore it and show people the cold shoulder? Isnt that making the Mass about you and what you want or in this case don't want? I'm not talking about a drawn out chat but you can't be polite or kind? That person next to you is also God's child too...and Christ died for them as well.....

There is nothing in the missal that says we have to stop and have our little meet and greet during the mass. That is why EWTN doesn't do it. I am simply abstaining from what I believe is a corrupting influence in the liturgy. That person next to me will simply have to do what the mother of God did at the cross. I wish the kindness and politeness were reciprocated to me and my family by not distracting of from the from our prayer. Maybe I should just wear a sign that politely explains that we abstain fro the sign of peace.

bmadamsberry · #47 May 14, '12, 10:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathryn

There is nothing in the liturgy that says we are to hold hands. People made this up as something we should do, even if the person next to you doesn't want to do this. We should do what the Catholic Church tells us to do which is to stand. Standing is the sign of unity.

The liturgy also does not tell us to breath during the liturgy, and yet we do. I know it's a ridiculous analogy (I would even say a false analogy, but I made it anyway).

However, the liturgy we have today was formed from centuries of organic changes. Organic change does not happen on the level of bishops and popes, but rather that of the laity and the priests. Bishops and Popes don't just come up with changes and implement them; instead, they see organic changes to the liturgy and either suppress them or encourage them (depending on whether it's a good change or a bad change).

There is a large difference between directly breaking a liturgical rule, and adding a pious devotion. This may be one of those. There are bishops that have suppressed this practice, and others that have encouraged it. I would point people to the directives of their bishops.

CMatt25 · #48 May 14, '12, 11:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

To answer you question ...no, you or anybody else is not worthy of me taking a break at mass and having a smiley meet and greet at the foot of the cross while I'm trying to look with the eyes of faith at the mystery of my redemption. So try not to be offended because the mass isn't about you.

I never said it was about me. See Luke 24:36 to see the words Jesus said.

InnocentFortune · #49 May 14, '12, 11:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMatt25

I never said it was about me. See Luke 24:36 to see the words Jesus said.

Good. If it's not about you then you shouldn't have a problem with anybody not showing you the attention that you seem to crave from people who are trying to cling to their faith in the sacraments.

Jegudiel · #50 May 14, '12, 11:24 pm

That's one of the few things that is horrid about the daily EWTN Mass -- they skip the kiss of peace. Yes it is allowed but it's a horrid thing to do. So darned severe! I love it when visiting bishops celebrate the Mass and include it. Much, much nicer!

Jegudiel · #51 May 14, '12, 11:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

People who force me to hold hands during the Our Father when the Church tells us not to disturb my peace. A woman at Mass on Sunday literally pried my hands apart and placed her hand in mine (I keep them pressed together tightly, under my chin). Grrrrrrrrrrr

Tell you what big-guy try artificially sneezing in your hands next time. If that doesn't work, blow your nose in your hands and then wipe the output in your nose before offering your hand.

bmadamsberry · #52 May 14, '12, 11:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

Good. If it's not about you then you shouldn't have a problem with anybody not showing you the attention that you seem to crave from people who are trying to cling to their faith in the sacraments.

Is paying attention to people mutually exclusive of clinging to one's faith in the sacraments? I don't think they are. How is holding hands during the Our Father mutually exclusive with that of a vertical worship of G-d?

InnocentFortune · #53 May 14, '12, 11:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jegudiel

That's one of the few things that is horrid about the daily EWTN Mass -- they skip the kiss of peace. Yes it is allowed but it's a horrid thing to do. So darned severe! I love it when visiting bishops celebrate the Mass and include it. Much, much nicer!

Funny I can't stand it. I wish you people would have your hippie hug fests in the parking lot after mass not right after Christ is lifted up on the cross. Just seems so inappropriate to carry on like that at the re-presentation of the crucifixion.

bmadamsberry · #54 May 14, '12, 11:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

There is nothing in the missal that says we have to stop and have our little meet and greet during the mass. That is why EWTN doesn't do it.

Actually, the default position for the liturgy is to do the sign of peace. Only for a good/grave reason is one to abstain from the practice. The rubrics, such as the GIRM and RS make it clear that the Sign of Peace is supposed to be part of the Mass and rarely, if ever, not used.

The fact that you see it as a "meet and greet" is a problem, because that's not its intent. GIRM 82 states that the Rite of Peace is that "by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament." Again, the vertical is not exclusive of the horizontal. Both/and, if you will.

InnocentFortune · #55 May 14, '12, 11:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmadamsberry

Is paying attention to people mutually exclusive of clinging to one's faith in the sacraments? I don't think they are. How is holding hands during the Our Father mutually exclusive with that of a vertical worship of G-d?

I kind of got off topic discussing the sign of piece. And yes that is mutually exclusive to the faith in the mass in my view because what you are supposed to be seeing is Christ, broken and bloody, being lifted up on the cross for your sins. Imagine actually being at the foot of the cross of your savior and having everybody breakout with a jolly meet and greet right there while your Lord is dying. You wouldn't. The action takes away from what faith is supposed to communicate to you. That you are actually at the real and true crucifixion of Jesus.

bmadamsberry · #56 May 14, '12, 11:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

Funny I can't stand it. I wish you people would have your hippie hug fests in the parking lot after mass not right after Christ is lifted up on the cross. Just seems so inappropriate to carry on like that at the re-presentation of the crucifixion.

That's certainly an argumentum ad hominem. It's not a hippie hug fest. It's simply a sign of peace. It is where "the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament" and where "the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family" (GIRM 82).

bmadamsberry · #57 May 14, '12, 11:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

I kind of got off topic discussing the sign of piece. And yes that is mutually exclusive to the faith in the mass in my view because what you are supposed to be seeing is Christ, broken and bloody, being lifted up on the cross for your sins. Imagine actually being at the foot of the cross of your savior and having everybody breakout with a jolly meet and greet right there while your Lord is dying. You wouldn't. The action takes away from what faith is supposed to communicate to you. That you are actually at the real and true crucifixion of Jesus.

Because when Christ told John "behold your mother" and Mary "behold your son," they didn't even glance at each other. How far is this logic supposed to go? Should we create little pew boxes so that we can't see anyone around us? Part of the Mass is the coming together of the community (a part of the Mass, not the only part of course) in the mutual worship of G-d.

They are not mutually exclusive things. One can multi-task when it comes to worship and the liturgy. I can both praise G-d and hold my neighbors hand as we both pray to Christ. St. Augustine, who was a strong advocate for loving created things when that love points towards G-d, would have been rather disappointed in what you're saying..

InnocentFortune · #58 May 14, '12, 11:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmadamsberry

That's certainly an argumentum ad hominem. It's not a hippie hug fest. It's simply a sign of peace. It is where "the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament" and where "the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family" (GIRM 82).

That's not an ad hominem and you saying that it is just means you don't know what an ad hominem argument is. I wasn't making an argument genius. I simply used a kinda insulting description for what the sign of piece is. I didn't attack anyone personally which is what an ad hominem is.

bmadamsberry · #59 May 14, '12, 11:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentFortune

That's not an ad hominem and you saying that it is just means you don't know what an ad hominem argument is. I wasn't making an argument genius. I simply used a kinda insulting description for what the sign of piece is. I didn't attack anyone personally which is what an ad hominem is.

Telling someone to go have their hippie hug fest is attacking a person (goodness knows, I would hate to be called a hippie).

InnocentFortune · #60 May 14, '12, 11:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmadamsberry

Because when Christ told John "behold your mother" and Mary "behold your son," they didn't even glance at each other. How far is this logic supposed to go? Should we create little pew boxes so that we can't see anyone around us? Part of the Mass is the coming together of the community (a part of the Mass, not the only part of course) in the mutual worship of G-d.

They are not mutually exclusive things. One can multi-task when it comes to worship and the liturgy. I can both praise G-d and hold my neighbors hand as we both pray to Christ. St. Augustine, who was a strong advocate for loving created things when that love points towards G-d, would have been rather disappointed in what you're saying..

Glancing at someone is a far cry for what happens a typical sign of piece and you know. It is a break from the mass where we all smile and shake hands and say hello and blah blah blah. Would be completely inappropriate thing to do at the real crucifixion which is supposed to be what the mass is, right?