Side stepping questions?

ErricFiggy · #1 May 16, '12, 12:17 am

Hello everyone

I have a question, and I'd like your guys(and girls

) advice. I'm talking to a friend, and I keep asking him what the Bible says is the pillar and foundation of the truth. He avoids answering the question and keeps trying to change the topic to Mary's Immaculate Conception. It's apparent to me that he's not interested in actually talking, but simply trying to "enlighten" me. He switched topics and immediately started throwing verses at me. So my question is, should I continue asking him to answer my question? I've refused to go on until he stops dancing around it. Is this right? Or shoud i go on and talk about the Immaculate Conception?

PerfectTiming · #2 May 16, '12, 1:01 am

If he's skipping around it then he probably doesn't know how to respond to you. There are certain Christian groups that are almost trained to attack certain pieces of Catholic doctrine and regurgitate Bible verses but not much else - resulting in exactly what your friend is doing, dancing around topics he can't answer with the rehearsed party line. If you can refute his misinformations then that could open him up to realising the other errors in what he has been taught.

**po18guy** · #3 May 16, '12, 2:24 am

Christ said that all things (which includes the immaculate conception) are possible with God. That is fact. And, man did not cause the immaculate conception, God did. As to the Church, Saint Paul wrote that only one thing is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus Himself said that He founded a Church (Matthew 16:18) and that the Church was the ultimate authority in resolving disputes (Matthew 18:17).

Ask him to meditate on the Church and its authority, as that is primary. Keep him focused, as he will try to shotgun you with a wide array of disagreements. It is an uncomfortable subject for him - that is clear. Give him some time to meditate on it.

agnes therese · #4 May 16, '12, 3:44 am

Since he's obviously side-stepping it, I'd keep bringing it up. Tell him you can move on to the Immaculate Conception after this topic is done.

St Francis · #5 May 16, '12, 4:09 am

I have found in most of my conversations with Protestants that the central issue is that of authority, which the verse you are citing is a clear speaking of in the Bible.

Carry on! Your refusal to discuss anything else is the right thing to do.

**JRKH** · #6 May 16, '12, 5:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

Hello everyone

I have a question, and I'd like your guys(and girls

) advice. I'm talking to a friend, and I keep asking him what the Bible says is the pillar and foundation of the truth. He avoids answering the question and keeps trying to change the topic to Mary's Immaculate Conception. It's apparent to me that he's not interested in actually talking, but simply trying to "enlighten" me. He switched topics and immediately started throwing verses at me. So my question is, should I continue asking him to answer my question? I've refused to go on until he stops dancing around it. Is this right? Or should I
go on and talk about the Immaculate Conception?

Did the conversation start over the subject over the "pillar and foundation" or did it start over something else?? The only reason I ask is because it might be that he feels it is you who are trying to change the subject.

That said - I believe that you should stick to your guns re: discussing authority for ultimately this is what it is going to boil down to no matter what course the conversation takes.
You might talk a bit about the Immaculate Conception as a way to placate him and also to provide an opening for discussing how differences are resolved when two people have different understandings of Scripture etc...

So perhaps you can take the verses he tosses at you and toss a couple back in support of the IC. Once it is apparent that you each have "biblical support" for your position, THEN you can ask him what the Bible says about resolving such matters when both sides are true, sincere Christians who have deep and troubling disagreement...(the answer is in Mt 18:15-18 - and note that "sin" in that passage can certainly include the teaching of a false doctrine)

Peace
James

**1ke** · #7 May 16, '12, 6:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

I have a question, and I'd like your guys(and girls

) advice. I'm talking to a friend, and I keep asking him what the Bible says is the pillar and foundation of the truth. He avoids answering the question and keeps trying to change the topic to Mary's Immaculate Conception.

This is a typical tactic in fundamentalist/evangelical circles, especially on verses they cannot defend. I used to encounter it a lot on some other boards I no longer visit. In fact, when forced into a corner, several of them just simply stopped posting when I would not respond to the "change the subject" tactics and kept pressing. They literally vanished off the board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

I've refused to go on until he stops dancing around it. Is this right?

Yes. Be a broken record. Keep repeating until they answer or simply give up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

Or shoud i go on and talk about the Immaculate Conception?

No.

Lincoln7 · #8 May 16, '12, 7:00 am

Hi all,

I am a tad unsure why they won't accept the church as the pillar and foundation of the truth?
http://m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom43.iii.v.iii.html

I'm happy enough to heartily agree with Paul

I just don't reach the same conclusions on this verse as Catholics do.

Kind regards

Lincs.

jschutzm · #9 May 16, '12, 7:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

...... I'm talking to a friend, and I keep asking him what the Bible says is the pillar and foundation of the truth. He avoids answering the question and keeps trying to change the topic to Mary's Immaculate Conception. It's apparent to me that he's not interested in actually talking, but simply trying to "enlighten" me. He switched topics and immediately started throwing verses at me. So my question is, should I continue asking him to answer my question? I've refused to go on until he stops dancing around it. Is this right? Or shoud i go on and talk about the Immaculate Conception?

To actually answer your question: YES, you SHOULD keep bringing that up... if and ONLY if that is what the original topic of conversation was. IF, however, he started with the immaculate conception and where evidence for that is in the bible, then answer HIS question first, THEN say: "now that I answered your question, would you mine answering one of mine?"

But if the original conversation was about 'authority' - and you've answered one of his questions on that topic, then you have EVERY right to ask that he in turn answer yours as part of your dialogue.

I see the Catholic Answer LIVE radio hosts do this all the time. Tim Staples is a master at answering a question and then turning it around and making them examine their faith.

So it is NOT unchristian to politely insist that they reciprocate or stay on topic. In fact you need to be firm, often times, to keep them from shotgunning you with 4 ro 5 topics at once.
If you want.. you can always take the line that you aren't able to focus on multiple topics at once.. so if they could help you stick to just 1, that would help YOU.
OR
That you appreciate your zeal or enthusiasm, so you want to take time to answer each topic in turn.
OR
Have them write down their questions and then go through them 1 by 1 -- maybe by getting it ALL out of their system...they'll feel heard and calm down.

Often times when a Non-Catholic runs up against a Catholic who seems to be able to hold their own.. they do what Catholics refer to as "the doctrinal dance" -- they start jumping from topic to topic, never letting you truly answer the question. Many times ending up simply using ad-hominum attacks (attack the man) and 'guilt by association'

Ask him what denomination he is, if you haven't already. That sometimes helps you to know his faith background - what his biases or assumptions are.

Don't be afraid to say "You know what..that is a really good question and I will get you an answer" - then research it and GET BACK TO HIM - worse thing is to say "let me get back to you" and then never do. - credibility killer.

Keep hammering on 4 points.

1) no where does the bible say it is the sole source of authority - the closest is a verse which says it is profitable for reproof and instruction - but not "only" or "sole" source

2) Paul tells his followers to take their differences to "the church" not his writings or scripture. So final authority to settle matters is vested in an organization and NOT scripture when 2 Christians disagree on what Scripture means.

3) Jesus vests authority in MEN, not a book. Grants authority to forgive sins to the Apostles not their literature

4) Paul urges Christians to hold fast to their "traditions" both written and oral - NOT the bible alone.

Just keep re-iterating these points until he answers each one and stops dancing around the doctrines of the church.

God Bless

**JRKH** · #10 May 16, '12, 7:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lincoln7

Hi all,

I am a tad unsure why they won't accept the church as the pillar and foundation of the truth?
http://m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom43.iii.v.iii.html

I'm happy enough to heartily agree with Paul

I just don't reach the same conclusions on this verse as Catholics do.

Kind regards

Lincs.

At one time I would have agreed with this...Until the bible showed me how wrong my previous conclusions were.

Peace
James

Lincoln7 · #11 May 16, '12, 7:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

At one time I would have agreed with this...Until the bible showed me how wrong my previous conclusions were.

Peace
James

Hi James,

We follow different teachers I suppose.. Anyway, to stay on topic; I posted simply to demonstrate that this verse poses neither a problem to reformed theology, nor is 'uncomfortable' for us.

Kind regards

Lincs.

jschutzm · #12 May 16, '12, 7:41 am

..... Another suggestion...

John Martigoni often starts by agreeing with them on whatever bible verse they bring up.
He'll sometimes say "Amen! Brother!.. as a Catholic I agree with that verse 100%"

But then go onto show them how he interprets it differently and how they MIGHT be reading into it.

Often times non-Catholics read into verses and insert an extra "alone" or "only" into the verse.

So 'scripture is useful for reproof and instruction' becomes 'scripture [alone] is useful for reproof and instruction'

...We are saved by faith apart from works of the law, becomes "faith [alone] apart from works of the law"

But as a Catholic... we 100% agree with the bible. We just don't read into it, things which are not there or add our own interpretation on top of the author's intent.

If you can at least get the person to concede that there is even room for another interpretation or a different take on that verse...then you've cracked the door open a bit and created room for the Holy Spirit to enter. That would be the BEST outcome.

OH, and lastly... always say a short prayer before hand or as you start to talk about it.. give glory to God and remember to say: "not thy will be done but YOURS, God" - give me the words to speak

**JRKH** · #13 May 16, '12, 8:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lincoln7

Hi James,
We follow different teachers I suppose..

Well my teacher is the Holy Spirit and Christ's own words....

Quote:

Anyway, to stay on topic; I posted simply to demonstrate that this verse poses neither a problem to reformed theology, nor is 'uncomfortable' for us.

Fair enough...It's good to stay on topic.

Of course - as I mentioned in my earlier post, ALL of these questions are bound to come back to authority. Two people - each trying to be good sincere disciples of Christ - hold different and irreconcilable beliefs. Each uses Scripture to support their position...How does Scripture instruct us to deal with this so that we may fulfill Christ's wish that we be "One" as He and the Father are one. (John 17:20-21)?

Peace
James

constantconvert · #14 May 16, '12, 8:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErricFiggy

Hello everyone

I have a question, and I'd like your guys(and girls

) advice. I'm talking to a friend, and I keep asking him what the Bible says is the pillar and foundation of the truth. He avoids answering the question and keeps trying to change the topic to Mary's Immaculate Conception. It's apparent to me that he's not interested in actually talking, but simply trying to "enlighten" me. He switched topics and immediately started throwing verses at me. So my question is, should I continue asking him to answer my question? I've refused to go on until he stops dancing around it. Is this right? Or shoud i go on and talk about the Immaculate Conception?

I personally would not go with 1 Tim. 3:15. It is sometimes used as a proof text or a "gotcha" by Catholics and may appear disingenuous-- the same way you would want him to avoid protestant "gotchas"

The Immaculate Conception can not be proved from the Bible, it can only be supported by the Bible. The real issue is the authority of the Church. I would try to talk about that. It's the biggest obstacle for protestants, no matter what they might say about Mary. If they realize that the Church is the authority Jesus has established, everything else falls into place.

I would insist that he not jump around from subject to subject machine-gunning verses at you. That's no way to have a discussion. Both people need to stay on topic.

Lincoln7 · #15 May 16, '12, 8:27 am

James,

Quote:

Of course - as I mentioned in my earlier post, ALL of these questions are bound to come back to authority. Two people - each trying to be good sincere disciples of Christ - hold different and irreconcilable beliefs. Each uses Scripture to support their position...How does Scripture instruct us to deal with this so that we may fulfill Christ's wish that we be "One" as He and the Father are one. (John 17:20-21)?

indeed, I have a thread going on this over in the non catholic forum. Your unwritten point being I need the infallible discernment of the church to guide me? (before going any further, I should mention I do quite happily adhere to the church as authoritative) With infallible guides though, the same argument seems to work: two guides - each trying to be good sincere disciples of Christ - hold different and irreconcilable beliefs. Each uses Scripture and Tradition to support their position... Which one do I follow?

To add of course, this argument also implies that scripture does not possess perspicuity, or that one of the differing parties in the dispute could in fact be correct in its understanding.

Kind regards

Lincs.