Image worship

Wretched one · #1 May 16, '12, 12:30 pm

What is catholic position on image worship? I see idols of Mother Mary in processions in rome.
Thanks in advance.

**Della** · #2 May 16, '12, 12:39 pm

An idol is a god carved of wood or fashioned by man. Images are not automatically idols, if that were true the Lincoln Memorial would be idolatrous, which is clearly isn't.

God never commanded that images could not be made, what he forbade was the worshipping of idols--gods other than himself made by human hands.

Indeed, God commanded images be made such as the winged seraphim on the ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent. We are not to replace images with the worship of God, which Catholics do not do.

mgoforth · #3 May 16, '12, 12:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

What is catholic position on image worship? I see idols of Mother Mary in processions in rome.
Thanks in advance.

We're not worshiping the statues of Mary. We give her respect and honor, but not worship. Same thing even for a statue of Jesus, or a crucifix. We don't worship those objects, they're just helpful visual aids.

bmullins · #4 May 16, '12, 12:50 pm

An Idol is something that represents or replaces God. Anything can be an idol, including a television, car, person. A statue of Mary is no different than a picture of your mother. It can be an idol, but only if you put it before God. If you worship Mary in God's place, then yes it is an idol. But just having it doesn't mean you are worshiping it, anymore than having a picture of family, a television, etc means you are worshiping them.

We Worship God and God alone. We revere, respect his Mother to a great degree and think she should hold a very special place in everyone's heart, but not God's place.

PJM · #5 May 16, '12, 1:04 pm

Quote:

=Wretched one;9305567]What is catholic position on image worship? I see idols of Mother Mary in processions in rome.
Thanks in advance.

THANKS FOR ASKING

First is is necessary to DEFINE what GOD humself claims is an "Idol"

Lev.26: 1"You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God"

2Kgs.17: 12, 15 “and they served idols, of which the LORD had said to them, "You shall not do this." They despised his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and the warnings which he gave them. They went after false idols, and became false, and they followed the nations that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had commanded them that they should not do like them

Definition of IDOL [M.W. Dict.]
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly: a false god
2 a: a likeness of something bobsolete: pretender, impostor
4 : an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>;

By this definition; Mary; the Mother of God ARE NOT Idols. “Worship is confined to God alone by the CC”

From the Catholic Catechism:

2135 "You shall worship the Lord your God" (Mt 4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.”

971 "All generations will call me blessed":[Lk. 1] "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." [small "w"] The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Informed and fully practicing Catholics pray THROUGH Mary and the Saints TO GOD. NOT to “them”. Our prayers are intended to be passed on to God.

Why?

Because they are in God’s presence

They Add there own petition on top of ours increasing their merit

“Worship” is reserve red to God alone. “reverence” is a much more accurate and correct understanding.

NOTE: in these to example God Himself commanded of Moses to make “graven images.” The Critical understanding is the PURPOSE of them. To lead One To and towards God as do Mary and the Saints; OR to compete WITH God. [the Incorrect Protestant understanding of what we Catholics actually do]

1 Chr. 18 “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim [Angels] that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD”

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

It's ALL in the Correct Understanding dear friend

God Bless,
pat/PJM

Todd Easton · #6 May 16, '12, 1:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

What is catholic position on image worship? I see idols of Mother Mary in processions in rome.
Thanks in advance.

Catholics are forbidden to worship images. However, they are permitted to venerate images of Christ and his saints, according to words of St. Paul, "Remember your leaders..." (Hebrews 13:7) and "honor such men." (Philippians 2:29). What you probably saw in Rome was the veneration of an image of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

**Tantum ergo** · #7 May 16, '12, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

So it is possible to make an imaginary idol of God, the Father and worship him? What do we do with the idol of Jesus? You said we give respect to Mother Mary. So the question.

No. A statue is NOT an 'imaginary idol of God' and a statue is NOT WORSHIPPED.

Let me ask you. Suppose Preacher JimBob walks up to the podium in the Church of Bible Christians carrying a nice leather bound Bible with him over his head. (And yes, I've seen this).

So, are the people in that church worshipping the Bible? Why not? It isn't God, right? It's being 'carried' in front of people, high overhead, right? Just like a statue?

But Preacher JimBob doesn't worship the Bible. . .and CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP STATUES.

Tell you what. You go look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and point out the passage that says that the Virgin Mary is God and that Catholics worship her. Also point out the passage that says that statues of the saints are idols and are to be worshipped.

Find those passages and let us know.

If you can't find them, I wonder if you will have the Christian humility to come back here and say, "Hey, Catholicism doesn't teach that Catholics worship idols or statues or that Mary is God."

Aelred Minor · #8 May 16, '12, 1:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Della

An idol is a god carved of wood or fashioned by man. Images are not automatically idols, if that were true the Lincoln Memorial would be idolatrous, which is clearly isn't.

God never commanded that images could not be made, what he forbade was the worshipping of idols--gods other than himself made by human hands.

Indeed, God commanded images be made such as the winged seraphim on the ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent. We are not to replace images with the worship of God, which Catholics do not do.

I assume you meant to write "we are not to replace the worship of God with images."

Wretched one · #9 May 16, '12, 1:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

No. A statue is NOT an 'imaginary idol of God' and a statue is NOT WORSHIPPED.

Let me ask you. Suppose Preacher JimBob walks up to the podium in the Church of Bible Christians carrying a nice leather bound Bible with him over his head. (And yes, I've seen this).

So, are the people in that church worshipping the Bible? Why not? It isn't God, right? It's being 'carried' in front of people, high overhead, right? Just like a statue?

But Preacher JimBob doesn't worship the Bible. . .and CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP STATUES.

Tell you what. You go look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and point out the passage that says that the Virgin Mary is God and that Catholics worship her. Also point out the passage that says that statues of the saints are idols and are to be worshipped.

Find those passages and let us know.

If you can't find them, I wonder if you will have the Christian humility to come back here and say, "Hey, Catholicism doesn't teach that Catholics worship idols or statues or that Mary is God."

I am sorry to have offended you. I was just trying to understand. I had not properly understood what you nice people wrote and I wrote a wrong reply and before I could delete it you had already commented.
Anyways I now understand. Catholics venerate the idols and worship God in his invisible form only. They use idols as aid. One final question on this topic. Can I bow down before the idol of God and Jesus imagining them to be present there to show my respect? It helps me as an aid as you said. Just clarifying.

Aelred Minor · #10 May 16, '12, 1:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I am sorry to have offended you. I was just trying to understand. I had not properly understood what you nice people wrote and I wrote a wrong reply and before I could delete it you had already commented.
Anyways I now understand. Catholics venerate the idols and worship God in his invisible form only. They use idols as aid. One final question on this topic. Can I bow down before the idol of God and Jesus imagining them to be present there to show my respect? It helps me as an aid as you said. Just clarifying.

You are still using the word "idol". I assume you are doing so innocently, but an idol is an object of worship. We use statues of Jesus, for example, and we may use them in the worship of Jesus, but we never worship the statue itself, nor believe that Jesus is somehow spiritually present in the statue or something like that. Thus, the statue is not an idol, but merely a statue.

**Della** · #11 May 16, '12, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aelred Minor

I assume you meant to write "we are not to replace the worship of God with images."

Yes.

My fingers got fangled.

**po18guy** · #12 May 16, '12, 1:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

What is catholic position on image worship? I see idols of Mother Mary in processions in rome.
Thanks in advance.

Is the cross on your church, or on the cover of your bible an idol?

Is the hymn "The old rugged cross" a song to a pagan idol?

Things are not always as they seem. You are investigating. That is very good.

mary bobo · #13 May 16, '12, 1:47 pm

I like to simplify things like this. We have pictures of our mother and we do not worship it but it reminds us to appreciate all she has done for us. We do not pray to Mary, but thru her. Rather than ask Jesus directly, we ask His mother to intercede for us on our behalf. Perhaps this makes it easier to understand.

TimothyH · #14 May 16, '12, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I am sorry to have offended you. I was just trying to understand. I had not properly understood what you nice people wrote and I wrote a wrong reply and before I could delete it you had already commented.
Anyways I now understand. Catholics venerate the idols and worship God in his invisible form only. They use idols as aid. One final question on this topic. Can I bow down before the idol of God and Jesus imagining them to be present there to show my respect? It helps me as an aid as you said. Just clarifying.

We worship God in his visible form as well. That means Jesus.

The Second Person of the Trinity took flesh and walked the earth two thousand years ago in Palestine. His name was Jesus. Him we worship.

Jesus also left his his sacramental presence in the Eucharist. When the priest takes unleavened bread and wine and says the words of consecration, "This is my body" and "This is the chalice of my blood", then Jesus becomes present. The bread and wine are turned into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. This we call the Eucharist. This we worship because it is Jesus. It is the Lord Jesus Christ made visible, and we worship.

There is no imagining Jesus to be present. Jesus is present.

The Eucharist is not an idol. It is Jesus.

-Tim-

Elizium23 · #15 May 16, '12, 2:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary bobo

I like to simplify things like this. We have pictures of our mother and we do not worship it but it reminds us to appreciate all she has done for us. We do not pray to Mary, but thru her. Rather than ask Jesus directly, we ask His mother to intercede for us on our behalf. Perhaps this makes it easier to understand.

However, it is incorrect. We do indeed pray to Mary and the saints.