Psalm 22, "They have pierced my hands and my feet."

itullian · #1 May 17, '12, 3:45 am

There seems to be a lot of controversy on this quote.

obviously if it's accurate, it's an amazing prophecy.

do we have any settlement on if this is a true translated passage?

thank you

DaveBj · #2 May 17, '12, 4:55 am

Just double-checked the Hebrew; it's word-for-word accurate.

COPLAND 3 · #3 May 17, '12, 5:04 am

Yes, not only does the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, but the Dead Sea Scrolls has ka’aru 'pierced'. Obviously the Greek Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew from the Dead Sea Scroll reading. For many years Orthodox Jews accused Christians of changing the Scriptures because the Masoretic Text read ka’ari 'like a lion' are my hands and feet, which really makes little sense. The Masoretic Text is not nearly as an ancient text as the Greek Septuagint or Dead Sea Scrolls, so if any text was altered it would seem as if the Masoretic Text was.

The Aramaic Peshitta also has pierced.

Nickless · #4 May 17, '12, 11:59 am

http://christianthinktank.com/ps22cheat.html

Verbum · #5 May 18, '12, 2:30 pm

Hi, Tullian,

The controversy is not about its value as a prophecy, but about what the original text is supposed to be. One of them says "they bind my hands and feet". This is the translation that the Bible de Jérusalem originally had. They later changed it to "as if to tear apart my hands and feet". Which goes to show that this is not a very sure text. We should point out that no evangelist has that quote, whereas they don't miss a single one of those that apply clearly to to Jesus' passion.

One of my footnotes says that St. Jerome personally stood for
"bind" but the Vulgate has "pierced". I guess he valued his life more than a shaky opinion. (The Vulgate was originally very badly received )

What do you think?

Verbum

itullian · #6 May 18, '12, 3:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbum

Hi, Tullian,

The controversy is not about its value as a prophecy, but about what the original text is supposed to be. One of them says "they bind my hands and feet". This is the translation that the Bible de Jérusalem originally had. They later changed it to "as if to tear apart my hands and feet". Which goes to show that this is not a very sure text. We should point out that no evangelist has that quote, whereas they don't miss a single one of those that apply clearly to to Jesus' passion.

One of my footnotes says that St. Jerome personally stood for
"bind" but the Vulgate has "pierced". I guess he valued his life more than a shaky opinion. (The Vulgate was originally very badly received )

What do you think?

Verbum

i don't know. that's why i asked. one source i read said the Jews added a verb in front of the whole phrase saying something like "he has attacked, like a lion, my hands and feet."

maybe we can clear it up a bit here?

patrick457 · #7 May 19, '12, 3:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by itullian

i don't know. that's why i asked. one source i read said the Jews added a verb in front of the whole phrase saying something like "he has attacked, like a lion, my hands and feet."

maybe we can clear it up a bit here?

No, the Masoretic text at this point has: "like a lion my hands and my feet." Of course, by itself the text does not make any sense (there is no verb; they did what "like a lion"?) and hence is probably corrupt.

meltzerboy · #8 May 19, '12, 3:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by itullian

There seems to be a lot of controversy on this quote.

obviously if it's accurate, it's an amazing prophecy.

do we have any settlement on if this is a true translated passage?

thank you

A lot of controversy? That is a vast understatement! Christian and Jewish scholars have been debating this verse for decades now. Believe me, there is NO settlement on the issue: I've been reading the differing perspectives for ages.

patrick457 · #9 May 19, '12, 3:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

A lot of controversy? That is a vast understatement! Christian and Jewish scholars have been debating this verse for decades now. Believe me, there is NO settlement on the issue: I've been reading the differing perspectives for ages.

Decades? I say centuries.

meltzerboy · #10 May 19, '12, 3:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

Decades? I say centuries.

You're undoubtedly right. I meant decades in my lifetime.

Todd Easton · #11 May 19, '12, 3:57 pm

The earliest certain "pierced" reading I've found is from St. Justin Martyr, about A.D. 155, who, quoting from Psalm 22:18, has, "They pierced my hands and feet." (First Apology, chap. 35; and Dialogue with Trypho, chap. 97)

demetrios423 · #12 May 19, '12, 7:23 pm

Can someone please help me out. I am trying to follow along, but I do not see the words "They have pierced my hands and my feet." in my bible. (NAB).

What specific chapter and verse?

patrick457 · #13 May 20, '12, 3:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by demetrios423

Can someone please help me out. I am trying to follow along, but I do not see the words "They have pierced my hands and my feet." in my bible. (NAB).

What specific chapter and verse?

In the NAB-RE:

Psalm 22:17 Dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and my feet
18 I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the old version (the infamous Third Edition, I guess?) familiar to many of you:

17: Many dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
So wasted are my hands and feet
18: that I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19: they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the original 1970 NAB:

17: Indeed, many dogs surround me,
a pack of evildoers closes in upon me;
They have pierced my hands and my feet;
18: I can count all my bones.
They look on and gloat over me;
19 they divide my garments among them,
and for my vesture they cast lots.

patrick457 · #14 May 20, '12, 3:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

Yes, not only does the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, but the Dead Sea Scrolls has ka’aru 'pierced'. Obviously the Greek Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew from the Dead Sea Scroll reading. For many years Orthodox Jews accused Christians of changing the Scriptures because the Masoretic Text read ka’ari 'like a lion' are my hands and feet, which really makes little sense. The Masoretic Text is not nearly as an ancient text as the Greek Septuagint or Dead Sea Scrolls, so if any text was altered it would seem as if the Masoretic Text was.

It's the Psalms scroll found in Naḥal Ḥever (aka 5/6ḤevPs), in line 12 of column 10. The Naḥal Ḥever scroll does have כארו "they dug/bored/pierced" (verb) in place of Masoretic כארי "like [a] lion" (noun), the difference resting on the easily-confused letters yod (י) and waw (ו), otherwise the text is very close to the Masoretic Text (Proto-Masoretic?)

demetrios423 · #15 May 20, '12, 3:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

In the NAB-RE:

Psalm 22:17 Dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and my feet
18 I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the old version (the infamous Third Edition, I guess?) familiar to many of you:

17: Many dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
So wasted are my hands and feet
18: that I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19: they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the original 1970 NAB:

17: Indeed, many dogs surround me,
a pack of evildoers closes in upon me;
They have pierced my hands and my feet;
18: I can count all my bones.
They look on and gloat over me;
19 they divide my garments among them,
and for my vesture they cast lots.

The NAB is the only Catholic Bible I have ever owned, why is it considered infamous?