Muslins and the BVM

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Not my point,

You had written, "Alawite's[Syria] venerate her though I don't know exactly how." I was pointing out how using that sect as evidence of Muslims venerating St. Mary was problematic because Allawites are not really Muslims.

Mary "Immaculate Conception" and the Quran are, in a word.

What do you mean?

the Historical Dating of the Immaculate Conception is my concern.

Are you seeking to find out whether the immaculate conception dates back to at least the seventh century AD, as data to be brought to the table in discussions with Eastern Orthodox?

There's a bit in Islam on Mary through History also.

"Every child is touched by the devil as soon as he is born and this contact makes him cry. Excepted are Mary and her Son".

Ahh, thanks, that's the material I had in mind.

From this Hadith and from verses 35-37 of Sura III, Moslem commentators have deduced and affirmed the principle of Mary's original purity. God, in fact, according to the Koranic text, granted the wish of Anna who consecrated to him Mary, about to be born, and the One to whom she would give birth (III, 37). God predestined Mary and purified her, raising her above all women (III, 45).

After this premise it is not surprising that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, though only implicitly contained in verses III, 31, 37, is univocally recognized by the Islamic religion. The recognition arises without difficulty also from the repeated and always unanimous evaluation of the extraordinary person of Mary and of her pure life (III, 42; XXI 91; LXVI, 12) which set her, with her Son, above every other created being.

Mary's childhood, as seen through the Koran narration and Islamic tradition, is entirely a miracle. Mary grows under direct divine protection, she is nourished daily by angels (III, 32) and has visions of God every day. Everything contributes to making her and her Son a signum for mankind (V, 79; XXI, 91; XXIII, 50). But if the detailed narration of Mary's childhood confirms the exceptional value of her person, it is necessary to stress that the greatness of Mary is completely related to the extraordinary event constituted by the birth of her son Jesus....etc etc etc.

[EWTN]

Thanks for citing this material too. One wonders why, in the Muslim framework, God decides to do such great things for Jesus and St. Mary rather than Muhammad and Amina, when Muslims believe that Jesus was sent only to the Jewish people but Muhammad to all of humanity?

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Amoon

Of course Muslims hold Mary in high regard, and the name Maryam, Mary in Arabic, is very famous among Muslim women. And we believe that she is the best woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations.

Why did Amina, the mother of Muhammad, not receive such special favours from God? What makes St. Mary so important?

Unfortunately, Muslims are not doing enough to spread the teachings of Islam,

Why do you say this?

[GaryTaylor]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

You had written, "Alawite's[Syria] venerate her though I don't know exactly how." I was pointing out how using that sect as evidence of Muslims venerating St. Mary was problematic because Allawites are not really Muslims.:

Ah, I see your point. I thought the Sunni's believed all others are heretical, such as the Shiites etc? Same in reverse with the Shiites, no?

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Are you seeking to find out whether the immaculate conception dates back to at least the seventh century AD, as data to be brought to the table in discussions with Eastern Orthodox?:

No, dating through history for my own interest, in a few areas, Christianity, Islam etc. There are patristics from the East/West which date earlier than this.

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Ahh, thanks, that's the material I had in mind.:

Your welcome.

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Thanks for citing this material too. One wonders why, in the Muslim framework, God decides to do such great things for Jesus and St. Mary rather than Muhammad and Amina, when Muslims believe that Jesus was sent only to the Jewish people but Muhammad to all of humanity?

So many issues in the middle east, restricted reading, religious/political law, literacy, view of women etc. Learned behavior by large which indicates a lack of compassion in its radical aspect, leads generation after generation astray. Good questions though. I was under the impression Islam believed Jesus was a muslim, yet was somehow sent to guide them by correcting their errors to Allahs will?

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Ah, I see your point. I thought the Sunni's believed all others are heretical, such as the Shiites etc? Same in reverse with the Shiites, no?

Well, some do and others do not. I would reckon that, notwithstanding the differences between Sunnis and Shi'as, both groups would consider the Allawites to be off in the deep end, with no hope of rescue.

No, dating through history for my own interest, in a few areas, Christianity, Islam etc.

Ahh.

There are patristics from the East/West which date earlier than this.

For St. Mary living a sinless life, definitely yes. For her immaculate conception, I shall have to investigate (all that comes to mind is a quote from St. Augustine equating Christ with the Blessed Virgin in terms of freedom from sin).

So many issues in the middle east, restricted reading, religious/political law, literacy, view of women etc. Learned behavior by large which indicates a lack of compassion in its radical aspect, leads generation after generation astray.

Those are important factors to keep in mind. But I was speaking in terms of abstract Islamic theology, rather than concrete socio-political reality.

Good questions though. I was under the impression Islam believed Jesus was a muslim, yet was somehow sent to guide them by correcting their errors to Allahs will?

The story goes that all the prophets taught Islam in their own particular way (e.g., Jesus and Muhammad did not hand down exactly the same dietary laws), all of them being sent by God to lead their peoples back to follow him correctly.

[GaryTaylor]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Those are important factors to keep in mind. But I was speaking in terms of abstract Islamic theology

Can you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Trebor135

The story goes that all the prophets taught Islam in their own particular way (e.g., Jesus and Muhammad did not hand down exactly the same dietary laws), all of them being sent by God to lead their peoples back to follow him correctly.

Yes, this is how I understand.

[Amoon]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Why did Amina, the mother of Muhammad, not receive such special favours from God? What makes St. Mary so important?

Because God chose Mary to be the best of all nations.

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Why do you say this?

I am sorry that till now, some of the non-Muslims don't know that we love May so much, and some of them don't even know how much we love Prophet Jesus.

You will never find a Muslim who does not believe in Jesus and his virgin mother.

[Luvtosew]

Originally Posted by Amoon

Because God chose Mary to be the best of all nations.



I am sorry that till now, some of the non-Muslims don't know that we love May so much, and some of them don't even know how much we love Prophet Jesus.

You will never find a Muslim who does not believe in Jesus and his virgin mother.

So you believe Jesus as a prophet, and you believe Mary and Jesus were both born sinless right, but do you place Mary above Jesus?

Did Muhammed perform miracles like Jesus?

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Amoon

Because God chose Mary to be the best of all nations.

Let's review our conversation:

1) First you wrote,

"Of course Muslims hold Mary in high regard, and the name Maryam, Mary in Arabic, is very famous among Muslim women. And we believe that she is the best woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations."

2) Then I asked,

"Why did Amina, the mother of Muhammad, not receive such special favours from God? What makes St. Mary so important?"

3) And now you repeat one part of what you said before--without answering my question.

I'm confused; maybe there was a misunderstanding. What I'd like to know is the following: why was `Amina not born sinless but Maryam was born pure?

I am sorry that till now, some of the non-Muslims don't know that we love May so much, and some of them don't even know how much we love Prophet Jesus.

Increasing the level of knowledge about different religions is a noble goal.

You will never find a Muslim who does not believe in Jesus and his virgin mother.

But Muslims do not believe in the same Jesus and St. Mary as Christians do, because both groups disagree on who they were and what they did in our world's spiritual history.

Let's say we both launched a campaign to tell others about Dubai. You proclaimed that the area was on the Arabian Peninsula in the Middle East, part of the UAE, and had a lot of migrant workers living there, especially from India and Pakistan. But I told everyone that Dubai was on the Iberian Peninsula ( Arabic: شبه جزيرة أيبيريا ) in southwestern Europe, part of Andorra ( Arabic: أندورا ), and had large numbers of foreigners residing there, particularly from Portugal and Spain.

In this scenario, you and I are describing Dubai in two very different ways. So, is it really true that we are talking about the same place?

[elwill]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Let's review our conversation:

1) First you wrote,

"Of course Muslims hold Mary in high regard, and the name Maryam, Mary in Arabic, is very famous among Muslim women. And we believe that she is the best woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations."

2) Then I asked,

"Why did Amina, the mother of Muhammad, not receive such special favours from God? What makes St. Mary so important?"

3) And now you repeat one part of what you said before--without answering my question.

I'm confused; maybe there was a misunderstanding. What I'd like to know is the following: why was `Amina not born sinless but Maryam was born pure?

let me inform you what quran said about Mary's mother

"Remember , when the wife of Imran said, "Oh my Lord ! I dedicate to you that which is in my womb freed for your service, so accept this of me for You are the Hearer and knower of all." 3/35

"When she delivered her she said, " O my Lord! I am delivered of a female child, " and Allah knows best of that which She had brought forth and this female is not like a male." 3/36

"And I have named her Mary." 3/36

"I command her and her offspring to be protected from Satan, the rejected." 3/36

"Graciously did her Lord accept her and made her grow in purity and beauty." 3/37


The wife of Imran, and mother of Mary, out of her devotion to God vowed to dedicate the child in her womb to the sacred service of God and asked God to accept her vow. Her hopes were in a male child who will be brought up to service the places of worship and be dedicated to serve God. Delivering a female child, she realized that things did not go according to her plan, but decided to fulfill her vow, and Maryam was the name of the child. And she made a prayer for her newly born asking God to protect her and her offspring from Satan.

"So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zachariya. Every time he entered Al-Mihrab (the praying place) to visit her, he found her supplied with sustenance [food]. He said:
'O Maryam! From where have you got this?' She said:
'This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance who He wills, without limit.' "


i hope if this answer your qurstion
Mary was accepted by God, and was brought up in a good manner after she was put under the care of Zachary. Through her devotion and righteous upbringing and the prayer from her mother, Mary became the best woman to ever live as depicted in the Quran in the verses 3:42:

[elwill]

Originally Posted by Luvtosew

So you believe Jesus as a prophet, and you believe Mary and Jesus were both born sinless right, but do you place Mary above Jesus?

Whenever a child is born it is born free of all sin and is a pure individual. Some people believe that a child is born sinful, but Islam has taught us that a child is born free of all sin. It is born is a state of Fitra

When a child grows it gets corrupted and the child beings to learn from its family and the environment in which it lives. This child is no longer on the Fitra

[GaryTaylor]

Originally Posted by elwill

Whenever a child is born it is born free of all sin and is a pure individual. Some people believe that a child is born sinful, but Islam has taught us that a child is born free of all sin. It is born is a state of Fitra

When a child grows it gets corrupted and the child beings to learn from its family and the environment in which it lives. This child is no longer on the Fitra

Does the Quran and all major areas of Islam believe "Whenever a child is born it is free of all sin and is a pure individual?"

What exactly is "Fitra". Sounds like a state of consciousness, thus memory and awareness.

So Adam fit how into the Quran through the Garden, fallen state, What happened to Adam/Eve when they were ejected from the Garden?

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by elwill

Whenever a child is born it is born free of all sin and is a pure individual. Some people believe that a child is born sinful, but Islam has taught us that a child is born free of all sin. It is born is a state of Fitra

When a child grows it gets corrupted and the child beings to learn from its family and the environment in which it lives. This child is no longer on the Fitra

This doesn't even make internal sense within Islam, as it is a standard belief in much of Islam that Satan touches all children when they are born. The Q'uranic extract reads like much of the Q'uran as a bastardised form of the Gospels mixed with various local tales and heresies.

[elwill]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

This doesn't even make internal sense within Islam, as it is a standard belief in much of Islam that Satan touches all children when they are born. The Q'uranic extract reads like much of the Q'uran as a bastardised form of the Gospels mixed with various local tales and heresies.

the concept of sinner which i understand refer to someone make sins with consciousness , not for a baby touched by satan in the hour of birth

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by elwill

the concept of sinner which i understand refer to someone make sins with consciousness , not for a baby touched by satan in the hour of birth

I suspect you need to research what is meant by original sin from a Catholic perspective, as I think you may be misunderstanding how we view it. What always strikes me about Islam and the Q'uran is the percentage of truth mixed in with heresies and errors and local mythology and folk tales. Which is prevalent in the Islamic view of Satan for example.

[elwill]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Does the Quran and all major areas of Islam believe "Whenever a child is born it is free of all sin and is a pure individual?"

The idea that innocent babies or children are sinful sounds completely absurd to a muslim
Humankind, according to Islam is born in a state of purity, without sin and naturally inclined to worship and praise God.
However, human beings are also given freewill and are thus capable of making mistakes and committing sins; they are even capable of committing great evil.
Whenever a person commits a sin, he alone is responsible for that sin. Every person is responsible for his or her own actions. Consequently, no human being who has ever lived is responsible for the mistakes made by Adam and Eve:

“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Fatir 35:18)

What exactly is "Fitra". Sounds like a state of consciousness, thus memory and awareness.

state of purity

So Adam fit how into the Quran through the Garden, fallen state, What happened to Adam/Eve when they were ejected from the Garden?

Adam and Eve made a mistake, they repented sincerely, and God in His infinite wisdom forgave them.