Yearning for God whilst in Hell

[exoflare]

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

Secondly one of my personal crank theories is that God intends to drive us off the planet, by two means - one will be our own stupidity and violence, and to quote my old pastor, "I think He's doing something to the sun" (no evidence yet, mind, but it's just that I found he was so accurate).

Do you have any idea how soon you think that will happen?

If He does, emigrants from earth are going to have to live in very austere circumstances (at least in the beginning). There simply will not be the means for unlimited population growth. Any attempt by the church then to ban artificial contraception will be laughed out of court.

The Church most likely won't have the power to "ban" people from anything, any more than they do now. However artificial contraception will remain immoral just as it always has and the Church won't suddenly have the luxury of pretending it's not, regardless of how many people choose to laugh.

[Blue Horizon]

Originally Posted by vera dicere

But say a person, a Catholic, goes to Mass, loves God tries to do his will, yet uses the IUD. They refuse the teaching of God on this matter.

Exactly what do you mean by "they refuse the teaching on this matter?"
Sin is not just an external act of disobedience to an external, arbitrary rule - which is what you seem to be saying here. You need to provide detail such as the reason why and under what circumstances/pressures? Obviously if someone loves God like you say then they must surely have an extremely good reason to do such a contrary thing.

BTW God never actually came out and "said" that contraception was wrong as far as I know. That comes from his Church.

They die, they go to Hell for being unrepetant of contracepting.
Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

No they don't yearn for God, they yearn for god with a little "g" (i.e. a distorted God made in their own image and likeness.) This is where their pain comes from, they cannot give up their lollipop god who has apparantly put them in hell. They are thus only really yearning for themselves and cannot breakthrough this delusion because of their stoney untrusting hearts. God would love to help them but they won't let him be God, they think God has to act the way they think god should act. Complete faith requires trust, a walk in the dark, a willingness to follow the real God even when it sometimes doesn't make sense. Only fiction has to make sense - Truth doesn't.

We yearn for God in this life, but we have hope of being with him. In Hell there is no hope, but does that yearning come with knowledge they'll never be with God?

As above. In this life we earn our salvation in fear and trembling knowing that we could be misled by our feelings. The signs and safeguards that we are on the straight and narrow path to God are the usual suspects: namely the desire to follow His teachings as best we understand them (we may fail regularly) and, over time, increasing manifestation of virtuous activity (at least interior acts, but this should normally overflow into exterior acts as well).

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

Younger minds often compare getting to heaven with a bank balance at the end of the year. If there are more deposits than withdrawals then waheeee! That is too immature a way to see things when we are adults. "Yearning" is a feeling, feelings may be mistaken. Feeling don't save you. They may be indicators of something deeper but who knows if what is deeper is noble or a lazy self-pity? "By their fruits ye shall know them" is the bottom line. See above re manifestation of virtuous behaviour.

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, "I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that".

You really need to explain more as above.

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

I'm pretty sure it was him. For example, he made some specific predictions, one of which was "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage you even more!"

My father died in January 1979. I met the pastor nearly four years later, around October 1982, when I became a Christian. I was an atheist when my father died.

Sometime in 1991, the pastor apologised to me with the words, "I owe you an apology... You needed encouragement, but all I've done is to discourage you even more!" Now I'd told him of my father's apparition previously, but when I pointed out he'd just quoted back my father's prediction about him almost word for word, he was shaken, and blurted out, "You really did see your father that night!"

Incidentally I learnt a lot from that pastor, and I still think he was "great", discouragement notwithstanding.

What's significant about that? Well, if Fr. Serpa is correct, and he's an exorcist, the devil, and therefore demons, don't know the future. The only way my father could therefore have made a prediction like was to be shown by divine agency.

I'm pretty sure it was him. And he had a few things to apologise for. He'd spent pretty much my whole life up to that point deliberately destroying my confidence, as he admitted the night he died, and appeared in my room.

yeah they dont know the future, but their 'angelic' minds understand the principle of cause and effect better than the human mind. They could have a clue but that is not some infalliable knowledge.
Ubenedictus

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by JDaniel

Bob:

Whew! I don't know where to begin. According to population the world population is growning at 80 million, births over deaths, each year. But, as the video implies, the contries where population control of some sort may be needed are NOT the industrialized ones. It is the underdeveloped and third-world countries that are supplying the increase of world population. But, it is the industrialized countries that are thwarting and killing their babies - the very people that have the best chance of making a difference.

Scientists estimate that the world can successfully sustain 40 billion people, more of less. That means, we've got about 30 more years.Contraception (and abortions) may have already killed the person/people that could have made a difference. Either smart people will find an alternative, or, we're in the end-times. Contraception will not help that a bit.

BTW, your theory is not Catholic.

Anyway, we've gotten off topic.

God bless,
jd

im sensing a little racism, you dont think the underdeveloped countries can produce the guy who can make a difference, no?
Ubenedictus

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

Bit of an error there - we've got more than 30 years before we hit 40 billion, and oddly enough I did have a brief vision once where "someone" said the earth was designed to cater for about 40 billion people, IF we share the resources.

I agree abortion is murder, and will be judged as such by the Almighty. However if the industrialised countries weren't practising birth control, the birth rate and population growth would be even greater than it is now.

i think you are trying to do God's work, let him do his work and let him sustain what he created. We run into trouble when we play God.
Ubenedictus

[phil_alton]

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

I'm pretty sure it was him. For example, he made some specific predictions, one of which was "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage you even more!"

My father died in January 1979. I met the pastor nearly four years later, around October 1982, when I became a Christian. I was an atheist when my father died.

Sometime in 1991, the pastor apologised to me with the words, "I owe you an apology... You needed encouragement, but all I've done is to discourage you even more!" Now I'd told him of my father's apparition previously, but when I pointed out he'd just quoted back my father's prediction about him almost word for word, he was shaken, and blurted out, "You really did see your father that night!"

Incidentally I learnt a lot from that pastor, and I still think he was "great", discouragement notwithstanding.

What's significant about that? Well, if Fr. Serpa is correct, and he's an exorcist, the devil, and therefore demons, don't know the future. The only way my father could therefore have made a prediction like was to be shown by divine agency.

I'm pretty sure it was him. And he had a few things to apologise for. He'd spent pretty much my whole life up to that point deliberately destroying my confidence, as he admitted the night he died, and appeared in my room.

Humm... one thought comes to mind: have you considered that he might be in purgatory? I hear it's pretty painful in there too! And, if he was apologising, that implies repentance?

[phil_alton]

Originally Posted by vera dicere

There's quite a few topics here on Hell, but I don't think I've seen one with this question.

We can't say for sure who's going to hell, or even if there are people are there. Yet, let's operate under the premise under Catholic teaching. Mortal sin can damn the soul.

But say a person, a Catholic, goes to Mass, loves God tries to do his will, yet uses the IUD. They refuse the teaching of God on this matter.

They die, they go to Hell for being unrepetant of contracepting.

In Hell, are they aware of their of contracepting being the reason they are in Heaven? Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

We yearn for God in this life, but we have hope of being with him. In Hell there is no hope, but does that yearning come with knowledge they'll never be with God?

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, "I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that".

This is the way I see it:

You say that they try to do God's will - if this is the case, and they followed their conscience in rejecting church teaching, then they were not acting will full free will, and their sin was not mortal

However, if this person knew what the church teaches, and, not only rejected that, but also rejected the urgings of their conscience, then they are surly not even trying to do God's will (as our conscience helps us to discern God's will)!

Someone who really love God, tries to do His will. Even if they get it wrong, they're not guilty of mortal sin, as they did not act with full freedom of their own will. If they are in a state of mortal sin, then they do not want to do the will of God, nor do they Love God! If they committed mortal sin, but love God, then they will be perfectly contrite, and thus not damned!

Hopefully these thoughts make some sense, and are of some benefit!

[Bob Crowley]

Originally Posted by phil_alton

Humm... one thought comes to mind: have you considered that he might be in purgatory? I hear it's pretty painful in there too! And, if he was apologising, that implies repentance?

I think anybody who is standing at the judgment seat sees themselves in the light of divine holiness. That is, we judge ourselves.

Matthew 12:37 NIV

"For by your (own) words you will be acquitted, and by your (own) words you will be condemned."

My father said things like "I can't believe how cruel and stupid I've been!'; "I've been an absolute mongrel to you!"; "All I was expected to do was to look after my own family, and I didn't even do that!"; "There's no hope for me..."; "I did it deliberately (ie. destroyed my confidence).."

Yet five minutes before he died, he wouldn't have admitted those things in a million years.

So he was judging himself. I think even someone like Adolf Hitler sees himself as he is, and would have judged himself in "..his (own) words..". The difference between him, most of the high ranking Nazis, and Albert Speer (almost alone admitting guilt) was that Speer admitted, "in his (own) words", during the Nuremburg trials "My life is a desert..". He at least was condemning himself prior to death, and therefore might have had a chance at salvation.

As for apologising, I think he was sent to apologise. I don't think it was his idea. He'd made his decision about God years before - he thought He didn't exist. He was wrong.

And I still remember the departing scream, and it was sheer terror. He even seemed to be brought closer so I'd get the message, as I was an atheist in those days, and not living a particularly great life.

I think Catholics pin a bit too much hope on Purgatory. I believe it exists, but I also think those who are there are still in the minority.

[John Martin]

It might be good here to see what a Doctor of the Church (my friend Thomas) says here, and then proceed from that.

He writes that "it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches. Otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic, who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will" [his own will being the ruler of what is true or untrue teaching is greater than the Church sent and empowered by Jesus, his own will being the truth decider rather than Jesus - he will not listen to the one's Jesus sent, but only listens to his own will and reason]. [Summa Theologica: Part 2; Question 5, Article 3 - St Thomas Aquinas]

Some (perhaps many) in the Church do not understand the "infallibility of the teaching of the Church" - do not understand that the Holy Spirit is indeed inspiring the Magisterium infallibly, and view the many rulings about life (such as contraception) to be somewhat personal convictions of various church leaders. They view these rulings more as "personal decisions of the personal reason". And, in this society based upon self-governance, we vote for our laws, vote for right and wrong. So, American popular "opinion", popular "conviction", currently approves of birth control and abortion. In our association with this society (being Catholics who live in the American culture) we have been raised by this American culture to consider "Catholic Culture" as "foreign" - we are as Catholics in a "Kingdom", not in a democracy. If this is the case, Catholics practicing contraception are doing so unwittingly, thus not being in "heresy but only in error", and they would be in purgatory. But this does show that we all need to learn and understand our Identity as Catholics. We need to understand we are a People that is different than the society in which we live - we are "in the world, but not of the world", we are aliens in the lands where we live with a different government than the culture surrounding us (1Peter).

Our King and his Magisterium is our government and our rule. We are His, we are not our own. Our lives are His, not our own. When we say, "Thy will be done", we are saying, "I am with you, Father, as your Son was with you; You are my Father and I will to be a son of my Father doing and believing all the same things I see Your Son doing and believing". The Church is Jesus speaking when it rules against contraception. If we know that, but still choose contraception, et.al, in spite of knowing, then we are committing and promoting mortal or grave sin. This person is not yearning for the true God in this life, this person is yearning for the god of his personal will and personal opinion, not for the God found in being one with the Church.

John Martin

[Bob Crowley]

The church used to condone burning at the stake.

I take it that was God speaking through the Church.

[John Martin]

Burning at the Stake - hmmm, but would you be able to show this as a ruling of the Magesterium, or was it an opinion of those holding official positions, yet having an inappropriate association in their own culture with the secular world (they using brute force to govern the Kingdom of God while in America we want democractic opinion to rule the Kingdom of God). They were in an unholy union with the culture of the world just as we are here in an unholy union with the culture of the world.

Burning at the stake is not and was never a teaching of the Church, and neither will democratically voted morality be the teaching of the Church.

With all the unholy people that have been and are in the Church, yet look at your Catechism and see if any of their teaching or morality have made it into the "teaching / ruling of the Church". The Holy Spirit has not failed and will not fail, as promised by Jesus.

I encourage you to consider: do you believe that Jesus by his Spirit kept Peter, John, Paul, etc., from teaching error and inspired them to rule only in truth, in spite of "unofficial error" (such as Peter being two-faced with the Gentiles). Jesus by his Spirit has kept this apostolic promise to them and to their successors down to you and me today. We are with Him in this Church - the teaching will remain good and true because he is here, even if we or priests or bishops, like Peter, do things in error yet turn from them.

John Martin

[Heuchler]

Depends what you believe on the matter. If you actually believe that the Church is God's institution put on Earth and that it is the Body of Christ, then punishment for refusal might be more severe. For if you look at the church's contraception teachings and disagree, you can do one of two things. The first is to submit to the church and trust that they have it right and that this is the will of God. The second is to deny the church and to put your own will above the church's. But really, I think if someone is going to defy the church to begin with on this matter, it would show a general sense of rebellion. One would have to say in their hearts that I want it my way, forget what anyone else says; I have it right, there is no other say in the matter. And is this not what get's people into Hell? Isn't Hell caused by rebelling against God? Even if you disagree on something like this, shouldn't you have the humility to realize that there is a possibility that you might be wrong.

Essentially, this is the same as what is going to happen at the end of our own lives. We will either look up to God and say "Thy will be done" or God will look down at us and say "Thy will be done".

[Philip Peters]

You do NOT accidently go to hell.

Your heart's own yearning after God is its own assurance of your salvation. You cannot love God through your own merits, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

If you long after God then you are in the state of Santifying Grace, because the Holy Spirit is active, working in your heart.

Mind you, sin is still significant. You are still responsible for your actions, and you need to be working out your salvation in fear and trembling.

[Joe Corn]

Congratulations, you just elected yourself pope! And by the way, if the entire 7 billion lived in Texas, it would be less crowded than Brooklyn. Do the math. Gods very first command to man: "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it". The worlds reply: be sterile, contracept and don't fill and subdue the earth, worship it. That committee you referenced was commissioned to study how to take the Church's teaching and apply it today, not to change it. They were so arrogant to call themselves, "The second magisterium" - They were dismissed as they should have been. Moral teaching does not change and the principles of Humanae Vitae are not subject to change.

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

I'm one of those who think the contraceptive pill was God's gift given to the human race just as the population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. The IUD is obviously a different method, but the ethical principle is the same.

A committtee was set up by John XXIII and enlarged by Paul VI. Tt recommended usage of the pill for married couples, and it was largely developed by Catholic researchers, if my understanding is correct. Yet Pope Paul VI overruled and banned it.

The following is a graph of population growth in a historical context. You can see it's almost vertical in our era. Yet right in the middel of that vertical upswing comes the contraceptive pill. Coincidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_curve.svg

From Wikipedia also -

If this is correct, the population of the world was 7 billion on the 31st March. From a blog, so I'm not sure how accurate it is, but "somewhere around 250,000 babies are born daily, and about According to the World Health Organization, some 56 Million deaths occur per year, at the current global average. That works out to about 153,400 (deaths) per day, or a little more than 100 per minute. For every death, there are a little over 2.25 births, or a something just over 350,000 per day."

If that's correct, the population increases by 200,000 per day. It's all very well quoting the church fathers, but they didn't have this problem. It's our problem - not theirs. In their time, the entire population of the world was about 200 to 300million. We increase by that number every three or four years.

Wikipedia again -

If that's correct, and it's a mortal sin, then 98% of US Catholic women are on their way to hell. For using contraception? I don't think so.

The promise Christ made to Peter was -

Matthew 16:19 NIV

The term "loose" implies the church can change previously binding rulings. And frankly, I think the church is going to be forced to change it's ruling, and realise it's made a mistake, by virtue of the simple pressure of population pressure.

As for people going to hell, I have no problem with that. I had the peculiar experience of my own father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. As far as I'm concerned he's in hell.

But during the conversation, he made one comment when I asked him "...then what is important?!"

His reply was "How you treat people". Simple as that.

Or as Christ put it -

Matthew 25:40 NIV -

That's what's important.

[Dale_M]

Whew! This thread reminds me of the Mississippi River. It has some depth, but a lot of back channels and lagoons, too.

I am going to go all the way back to the first post.

Originally Posted by vera dicere

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, "I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that".

I find it hard to comprehend how someone could truly believe that the Church speaks as a conduit for God, and yet reject any Church teaching. I am sure it is possible, but I just can't imagine such Lucifer-like pride.

Based upon my own conversations with "cafeteria Catholics," I think most persons who reject Church teachings do so because they consider those teachings to be of human origin, created by fallible men. In others words, they have an imperfect faith. They are oriented towards God, but truly to not understand (or accept) that the Church teachings are divinely inspired and infallible.

Speculating about the judgment we will face upon death is.... I dunno.... sort of like speculating what life looks like on other planets. We have little to go by.

Upon death, I suspect that persons of imperfect faith will be given the fullness of knowledge and allowed to make a choice, just as non-Christians will be given such knowledge and allowed to choose. In other words, the desire of a person to follow God's will, even if imperfectly understood and practiced, will count.

I can't imagine being condemned to hell for what an individual truly did not understand. Perhaps they will spend time in Purgatory, where the suffering of separation from God will be be felt. But I am just speculating.