Unclear CCC passage

[constantconvert]

I'm not clear what this passage of the catechism is teaching about the penances of fasting etc.

1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving,31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."32

[cjmclark]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

I'm not clear what this passage of the catechism is teaching about the penances of fasting etc.

It's just discussing the preferred methods of performing personal penance.

For example (in a very specific case), here in the US the Bishops are allowed to dispense with the requirement to abstain from meat on Fridays, provided a suitable penance is substituted. Engaging in prayer, fasting or almsgiving would fulfill the requirement of a "suitable penance."

More generally, if you feel a deep spiritual need to do something to help you lead a more Christ-centered life, you could also engage in one (or more) of those practices.

[St Francis]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

I'm not clear what this passage of the catechism is teaching about the penances of fasting etc.

What exactly are you having trouble with?

[constantconvert]

Originally Posted by St Francis

What exactly are you having trouble with?

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others.

What does this mean? Is it saying that we can convert ourselves and others through penance? Then why is God included in the list? Or is it simply saying that it expresses our conversion to God, ourselves, and others. Which doesn't really make sense because we're supposed to keep our good works a secret.

Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

Are these other penances, or is this a list of things that will be accomplished via penance? Either way it seems weird since these are the things we are supposed to be practicing anyway-- and then there is the intercession of the saints, not sure how that fits in. Does it mean that the more penance we do the more they intercede for us?

[constantconvert]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

It's just discussing the preferred methods of performing personal penance.

For example (in a very specific case), here in the US the Bishops are allowed to dispense with the requirement to abstain from meat on Fridays, provided a suitable penance is substituted. Engaging in prayer, fasting or almsgiving would fulfill the requirement of a "suitable penance."

More generally, if you feel a deep spiritual need to do something to help you lead a more Christ-centered life, you could also engage in one (or more) of those practices.

But isn't the passage about what penance does, too? The fruit it bears, so to speak? That is what i'm confused about. See post #4

[TEPO]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others.

What does this mean? Is it saying that we can convert ourselves and others through penance? Then why is God included in the list? Or is it simply saying that it expresses our conversion to God, ourselves, and others. Which doesn't really make sense because we're supposed to keep our good works a secret.

Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

Are these other penances, or is this a list of things that will be accomplished via penance? Either way it seems weird since these are the things we are supposed to be practicing anyway-- and then there is the intercession of the saints, not sure how that fits in. Does it mean that the more penance we do the more they intercede for us?

I think that at times, our faith tends to rise and fall -like a roller coaster ride. We can also at times fall into evil habits that can cloud our conscience...

I think this part of the catechism is describing ways to overcome these types of downfalls. That's how I'm seeing it.

[TEPO]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

But isn't the passage about what penance does, too? The fruit it bears, so to speak? That is what i'm confused about. See post #4

Go find every person that you may have possibly insulted in the last year and apologize to them even if they were in the wrong... This is a type of penance you can do. You would certainly feel an additional sense of purification afterwords. You might even cry tears of strange feelings of peace.

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others.

What does this mean? Is it saying that we can convert ourselves and others through penance? Then why is God included in the list? Or is it simply saying that it expresses our conversion to God, ourselves, and others. Which doesn't really make sense because we're supposed to keep our good works a secret.

Does penance help our conversion? Yes. Can it assist others as a kind of prayer to God in their conversion? Yes. God is included in the list because we are to be converted to God =to turn away from sin and by grace turn to God...One can do penance for others in secret -- just as one can pray for others in secret

Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

Are these other penances, or is this a list of things that will be accomplished via penance? Either way it seems weird since these are the things we are supposed to be practicing anyway-- and then there is the intercession of the saints, not sure how that fits in. Does it mean that the more penance we do the more they intercede for us?

These things are means of obtaining forgiveness ..many many ways ones venial sins can be forgiven for one is in a state of Grace --is living in Christ.YES much of the Christian Life contributes to the forgiveness of ones venial sins all the time....and the mitigation of the temporal effects of sin. As to intercession -- one could for example ask the Saint to pray for one --such can help in ones conversion etc.

[bscastro]

"fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others."

Maybe a little out of context, but the first part relates to the second:

1. fasting expresses conversion with regard to self (e.g. self-mastery through turning towards God)
2. prayer expresses conversion in relations to God (e.g. turning to God through communication)
3. almsgiving expresses conversion with relations to others (e.g. works of mercy toward the poor for example)

At least that's what I got out of it.

God bless,
Bryan

[St Francis]

Originally Posted by bscastro

Maybe a little out of context, but the first part relates to the second:

1. fasting expresses conversion with regard to self (e.g. self-mastery through turning towards God)
2. prayer expresses conversion in relations to God (e.g. turning to God through communication)
3. almsgiving expresses conversion with relations to others (e.g. works of mercy toward the poor for example)

At least that's what I got out of it.

God bless,
Bryan

This is what I was going to say!

[St Francis]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others.

What does this mean? Is it saying that we can convert ourselves and others through penance? Then why is God included in the list? Or is it simply saying that it expresses our conversion to God, ourselves, and others. Which doesn't really make sense because we're supposed to keep our good works a secret.

This is talking about conversion within ourselves in relation to self, God, and neighbor. Ouractions, even if secret, still more thoroughly embed the impetus for the action within us, in addition to allowing God's grace to flow more freely into the world.

Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

Are these other penances, or is this a list of things that will be accomplished via penance? Either way it seems weird since these are the things we are supposed to be practicing anyway-- and then there is the intercession of the saints, not sure how that fits in. Does it mean that the more penance we do the more they intercede for us

These are several ways to obtain forgiveness of our sins: trying to restore relations with our neighbors, crying over our sins, being concerned [probably enough to pray or do something else for] our neighbor's salvation, asking the saints to pray for us, and various practices of charity.

Does the re-wording help?

Yes, these are things we are supposed to be practicing.... but we are to practice them in concert with wanting forgiveness for our sins. Wanting and asking for forgiveness of our sins is very important! First, we want God to fogive our sins, for without that forgiveness, we cannot enter into His Presence, and secondly, when we ask for His forgiveness, we are acknowledging that we need his forgiveness, that in our sinning, we have offended Him as well as any human person.

[TiggerS]

Originally Posted by constantconvert

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others.

What does this mean? Is it saying that we can convert ourselves and others through penance? Then why is God included in the list? Or is it simply saying that it expresses our conversion to God, ourselves, and others. Which doesn't really make sense because we're supposed to keep our good works a secret.

Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

Are these other penances, or is this a list of things that will be accomplished via penance? Either way it seems weird since these are the things we are supposed to be practicing anyway-- and then there is the intercession of the saints, not sure how that fits in. Does it mean that the more penance we do the more they intercede for us?

Fasting prayer and almsgiving expresses conversion re self, God and others. Fasting re the self, prayer re God and almsgiving re others. They are indications or evidence of a conversion of life of the self for God and others for the love of God. These three actions: fasting, prayer and almsgiving can be kept entirely and absolutely private and often are far more meritorious before God if deliberately kept so. Sometimes however, this might be impossible. The Lord reads our heart even more accurately than we can read our own heart.

Forgiveness of our sins can also be obtained through striving to be a peacemaker in any situations where there is discord. Tears of repentence - crying for sorrow of our sins. Concern for the salvation of one's neighbour - an active concern for the salvation of all souls.
Practice of Charity - any and all overt actions that are charitable (especially when quite deliberately chosen) or loving towards others.
Intercession of the saints - the saints will always pray for us when we ask them to do so, hence if we pray to a saint or saints to intercede for us for forgiviness of our sinfulness, God responds.
Yes, all the above are hallmarks of a life that is Catholic and living The Gospel - through which we obtain pardon for our sinfulness.

That's how I read it.
Good thread, constantconvert, it makes one really think about what is being stated. Also, you have chosen a beautiful user name, truly beautiful. May The Lord grant The Grace of constant conversion to all! Amen.

[TEPO]

Originally Posted by TiggerS

Good thread, constantconvert, it makes one really think about what is being stated. Also, you have chosen a beautiful user name, truly beautiful. May The Lord grant The Grace of constant conversion to all! Amen.

I couldn't agree more..

I'm grateful that I stumbled a cross this thread.