Byzantine Rosary!!!

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by Tradycja

I think a Catholic would have to omit the "toll-house" thing. It's not a Catholic belief. There are even many Orthodox who say that this is a gnostic teaching (I agree).

How about this?

14) O Most Holy Sovereign Theotokos, grant me an untroubled and peaceful end and lead my soul through the terrible pains of purgatory.


Hey Phillip, you have a pretty slick-looking blog by the way!

Referencing "the terrible pains" of purgatory may also prove problematic within the Eastern tradition as the emphasis would not be one the pains, but on the process of theosis. That being said, however, I don't know how one would suitably change the prayer. But I do note that the original says simply "Tole House" and not "Tole Houses." The problematic theology is when one refers to "Houses" that one passes through in the after life on the journey to God's eternal Kingdom. If there is only one "House" through which we must travel, could we not think of that house as purgatory and then leave the prayer alone?

It's just a thought. Ultimately I don't like to speculate too much on purification in the afterlife. Both East and West recognize that such a purification exists, but the nature of that purification is all speculation as none of us has first hand experience.

[Phillip Rolfes]

There is one more thing I'd like to mention. I agree with Tradycja that the rosary is for everyone, if by rosary he is not limiting it to the Dominican rosary with which most Catholics (and even Orthodox) are familiar. Our own Byzantine tradition supplies us with an equivalent to the Dominican rosary in the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos, and the Virgin Theotokos herself has revealed to us that this is the most important devotion to her, even above Akathists.

In encouraging Christians of the Byzantine tradition (be they Catholic or Orthodox) to pray the rosary daily, I would encourage them to (re)adopt the rosary as our tradition has supplied it to us, and as it has been handed down since the 8th Century. I encourage this in no way to denigrate the Dominican rosary. Heaven forbid. My own spiritual father is a Dominican priest. I think he'd have my head if I started bashing the Dominican rosary. He had a hard enough time containing himself when I told him I'd sold my copy of the Summa. But I encourage Byzantines to pray their own authentic version of the rosary in an effort to restore Eastern tradition, which includes restoring this more ancient form of the rosary.

Incidentally, there are other forms of the rosary in the Latin West. The so-called "Franciscan Crown" and the "Brigittine Rosary" are both rosaries also associated with religious orders. I would wonder if the Franciscans and the Carmelites are under any "obligation" (for lack of a better word) to also pray the Dominican rosary, in light of the visions at Fatima; or if their rosaries are sufficient to fulfill Our Lady's request. If their rosaries are sufficient, does that mean that anyone could pray either the Dominican rosary, the Franciscan Crown, or the Brigittine rosary - to say nothing of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos - and still be fulfilling Our Lady's wishes? Personally I'd prefer to interpret Our Lady's request in this broader sense.

[John of Patmos]

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Incidentally, there are other forms of the rosary in the Latin West. The so-called "Franciscan Crown" and the "Brigittine Rosary" are both rosaries also associated with religious orders. I would wonder if the Franciscans and the Carmelites are under any "obligation" (for lack of a better word) to also pray the Dominican rosary, in light of the visions at Fatima; or if their rosaries are sufficient to fulfill Our Lady's request. If their rosaries are sufficient, does that mean that anyone could pray either the Dominican rosary, the Franciscan Crown, or the Brigittine rosary - to say nothing of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos - and still be fulfilling Our Lady's wishes? Personally I'd prefer to interpret Our Lady's request in this broader sense.

I have two Franciscan Crowns.
I know the Franciscans of the Immaculate carry regular Dominican Rosaries, I think.
I too like to see Our Lady's request as a broader, more encompassing way.
Phillip, it would be interesting if you could make a San Damiano cross out of knots. I bet you could do it...

XXX
X
XXXXXXX
XXXXX
XXX
XXX

[Phillip Rolfes]

I've had a life-long devotion to St. Francis of Assisi; hence my choice to attend the Franciscan University of Steubenville. When I was finally able to go to Assisi it was literally a life-long dream come true. My wife (then fiancé) was kind enough, at my request, to give me an entire day to roam the city alone. So I too have a Franciscan Crown, although it's been years since I've prayed it.

I don't know if I could make a San Damiano crucifix out of knots. That would take a good deal of experimenting.

[Hesychios]

Originally Posted by Tradycja

I think a Catholic would have to omit the "toll-house" thing. It's not a Catholic belief. There are even many Orthodox who say that this is a gnostic teaching (I agree).

How about this?

14) O Most Holy Sovereign Theotokos, grant me an untroubled and peaceful end and lead my soul through the terrible pains of purgatory.

I find it interesting that many RC on this forum and elsewhere make the claim that Orthodox already believe in Purgatory because of the Toll Houses, which Orthodox deny, some claiming it is gnostic.

You agree that the belief in toll houses is gnostic, then turn around and suggest Purgatory as a suitable substitute.

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by Hesychios

I find it interesting that many RC on this forum and elsewhere make the claim that Orthodox already believe in Purgatory because of the Toll Houses, which Orthodox deny, some claiming it is gnostic.

You agree that the belief in toll houses is gnostic, then turn around and suggest Purgatory as a suitable substitute.

Hesychios, is there actually a unified Orthodox teaching on this matter? I've heard some Orthodox still hold to the Tole House theory, others profess belief in purgatory, and still others maintain that there is some sort of theosis that takes place after death but before entrance into heaven, but the nature of this theosis is unknown. Interestingly, this last example most closely reflects current Roman Catholic teaching on the matter. But what is the "official" Orthodox teaching?

[Hesychios]

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Hesychios, is there actually a unified Orthodox teaching on this matter? I've heard some Orthodox still hold to the Tole House theory, others profess belief in purgatory, and still others maintain that there is some sort of theosis that takes place after death but before entrance into heaven, but the nature of this theosis is unknown. Interestingly, this last example most closely reflects current Roman Catholic teaching on the matter. But what is the "official" Orthodox teaching?

The Orthodox are very fluid on the subject.

Theoretically Theosis can continue on after bodily repose, this is something I think is commonly believed.

That does not mean that Theosis is accomplished through punishment and terrors.

Could there be punishment involved in this process? Yes. Is that the only way? No.

Let us look at it through an analogy for a brief moment. If I was to tell you and your lovely better half that you were invited to dinner at the White House, a command performance before the Queen or a personal audience with the Pope, how would you prepare?

Should we take you out and beat you bloody and terrify you?

Or would you go down to the haberdasher, and pick out some new threads, get the wife's hairdo touched up and pull out Grandma's earrings and necklace?

Maybe you don't quite fit in last years suit, some trips to the gym might be in order, and you buy a new tie in eager anticipation of the big day.

There is a lot of prep going on here, out of respect, and awe, and perhaps even love for this important person you are about to meet for the very first time.

Purgatory is like a penitentiary, a gulag, a place of punishment while awaiting trial. This is not how we always prepare ourselves to meet the King.

Can punishment be a part of the process of reconciliation and growth in holiness? Of course! Is it necessarily the way it is always done? That is too much to assume, it is too narrow an interpretation, it can be a pious opinion but not a dogma.

Perhaps I really deserve this bit of hellish treatment, perhaps you do, so be it.

For Orthodox, we believe that sins forgiven in confession are totally forgiven, there are no residual temporal punishments due. They are either indulgenced by Christ in confession or the priest will not absolve the sin and tell us why. We deserve justice and beg for mercy ... when God forgives, He forgives unconditionally.

I recently read a very interest book by a French scholar about the origin of Purgatory as a doctrine (got it through the library ). It is called The Birth of Purgatory by Jacques LeGoff, a Medeivalist. In it he traces most of the ideas which have bubbled up on the topic since Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, notes their contradictions and how the various strands of ideas evolved. He covers to a raft of visions and dreams in the tenth and eleventh centuries which helped to formulate the idea which finally became a doctrine in the west in the eleventh century.

Fascinating reading.

The dogma itself is rather vague, which helps it accommodate the wide range of folk beliefs and theories that had arisien in so many centuries. But most Roman Catholics will agree with Tradyca above, when she refers to the dogma in such terms as "the terrible pains of purgatory". As a theologumenon, I suppose some Orthodox could accept it, as a dogma no.

Purgatory and Theosis are in no way equivalent ideas, they meet on a tangent in one small point.

[CountrySteve]

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

I've had a life-long devotion to St. Francis of Assisi; hence my choice to attend the Franciscan University of Steubenville. When I was finally able to go to Assisi it was literally a life-long dream come true. My wife (then fiancé) was kind enough, at my request, to give me an entire day to roam the city alone. So I too have a Franciscan Crown, although it's been years since I've prayed it.

I don't know if I could make a San Damiano crucifix out of knots. That would take a good deal of experimenting.

umm ik this is off topic, but im about ready to go to college and thats the college im gonna apply for, how hard is to get in? God bless

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by Hesychios

The Orthodox are very fluid on the subject.

Theoretically Theosis can continue on after bodily repose, this is something I think is commonly believed.

That does not mean that Theosis is accomplished through punishment and terrors.

Could there be punishment involved in this process? Yes. Is that the only way? No.

Let us look at it through an analogy for a brief moment. If I was to tell you and your lovely better half that you were invited to dinner at the White House, a command performance before the Queen or a personal audience with the Pope, how would you prepare?

Should we take you out and beat you bloody and terrify you?

Or would you go down to the haberdasher, and pick out some new threads, get the wife's hairdo touched up and pull out Grandma's earrings and necklace?

Maybe you don't quite fit in last years suit, some trips to the gym might be in order, and you buy a new tie in eager anticipation of the big day.

There is a lot of prep going on here, out of respect, and awe, and perhaps even love for this important person you are about to meet for the very first time.

Purgatory is like a penitentiary, a gulag, a place of punishment while awaiting trial. This is not how we always prepare ourselves to meet the King.

Can punishment be a part of the process of reconciliation and growth in holiness? Of course! Is it necessarily the way it is always done? That is too much to assume, it is too narrow an interpretation, it can be a pious opinion but not a dogma.

Perhaps I really deserve this bit of hellish treatment, perhaps you do, so be it.

For Orthodox, we believe that sins forgiven in confession are totally forgiven, there are no residual temporal punishments due. They are either indulgenced by Christ in confession or the priest will not absolve the sin and tell us why. We deserve justice and beg for mercy ... when God forgives, He forgives unconditionally.

I recently read a very interest book by a French scholar about the origin of Purgatory as a doctrine (got it through the library ). It is called The Birth of Purgatory by Jacques LeGoff, a Medeivalist. In it he traces most of the ideas which have bubbled up on the topic since Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, notes their contradictions and how the various strands of ideas evolved. He covers to a raft of visions and dreams in the tenth and eleventh centuries which helped to formulate the idea which finally became a doctrine in the west in the eleventh century.

Fascinating reading.

The dogma itself is rather vague, which helps it accommodate the wide range of folk beliefs and theories that had arisien in so many centuries. But most Roman Catholics will agree with Tradyca above, when she refers to the dogma in such terms as "the terrible pains of purgatory". As a theologumenon, I suppose some Orthodox could accept it, as a dogma no.

Purgatory and Theosis are in no way equivalent ideas, they meet on a tangent in one small point.

Very good. Thank you, Hesychios. The only problem that I have with this is that the Roman Church herself has rejected the Medieval theologumenon that purgatory is a place of torture. Particularly since the Second Vatican Council Rome has opted for a more vague definition of purgatory, thinking of it more along the lines of a "refiners fire" where gold is taken to be purified. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself makes no reference to the "pains," "tortures," "torments," etc. of purgatory, but simply speaks of a process of purification "entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (emphasis mine). As to the nature of that purification, the Church remains silent. All else is speculation. I've heard a large number of Roman Catholic theologians actually outright condemn the notion that purgatory is some sort of "miniature Hell." Fr. Benedict Groeschell himself once spoke of a certain popular book on purgatory entitled Purgatory Explained, and said that that book should be banned from all Catholic libraries since it does not represent the Church's teaching on purgatory at all. Other Roman theologians, such as Scott Hahn, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Regis Martin, and even Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, have spoken of purgatory as a place not of pain and suffering, but a place of great joy and hope.

If the idea that purgatory is little more than a temporary Hell, a place of agony, torment and torture, persists, then it persists primarily on the level the popular piety of the masses. But it is certainly by no means the "official" teaching of even Roman Catholicism, let alone the entire Catholic Church East and West.

But on the whole I believe you are correct. And I'm grateful for your enlightening reply.

[Phillip Rolfes]

Sorry. I just realized we're starting to get WAY off topic by discussing purgatory in a thread that's about the "Byzantine rosary."

[Hesychios]

Polite conversations among friends have a tendency to evolve by nature. There is some relevance to what we write here ...

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by Hesychios

Polite conversations among friends have a tendency to evolve by nature. There is some relevance to what we write here ...

Thanks, Hesychios! Conversing with you is not only educational, it's also a pure pleasure.

[Padraig1972]

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Hello All,

I just wanted to provide some links to a few variations of the "Byzantine Rosary," more commonly known as the "Prayer Rule of the Theotokos." This work has been in large part due to our old friend, Alex Roman, who is sadly no longer on the forums. But he provided the translation of the Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy that made the reconstruction of the Rule in one of its forms possible. I miss Alex.

Anyhow, here is the Rule in three forms:

http://themasterbeadsman.blogspot.co...-seraphim.html

http://themasterbeadsman.blogspot.co...os-iii-st.html

http://themasterbeadsman.blogspot.co...otokos-iv.html

What do y'all think?

But just a question, which of these three are recommeneded? And can someone that has a growing interest for the orthodoxy like me (ROCOR) pray the chotoki or komboskini as it is called?

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by Padraig1972

But just a question, which of these three are recommeneded? And can someone that has a growing interest for the orthodoxy like me (ROCOR) pray the chotoki or komboskini as it is called?

Hi Padraig,

Any of those three are perfectly acceptable, and no one is recommended more than any of the others. Just pick one that is more suited to your devotion and prayer life, and then go at it!

And you can indeed pray with a chotki/komboskini/vervitsa/prayer rope. Most people pray the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner) on the prayer rope, but if you have another favorite short prayer that helps draw you more deeply into the indwelling presence of the Trinity, then you are free to say that instead.

[dcointin]

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Very good. Thank you, Hesychios. The only problem that I have with this is that the Roman Church herself has rejected the Medieval theologumenon that purgatory is a place of torture. Particularly since the Second Vatican Council Rome has opted for a more vague definition of purgatory, thinking of it more along the lines of a "refiners fire" where gold is taken to be purified. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself makes no reference to the "pains," "tortures," "torments," etc. of purgatory, but simply speaks of a process of purification "entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (emphasis mine). As to the nature of that purification, the Church remains silent. All else is speculation. I've heard a large number of Roman Catholic theologians actually outright condemn the notion that purgatory is some sort of "miniature Hell." Fr. Benedict Groeschell himself once spoke of a certain popular book on purgatory entitled Purgatory Explained, and said that that book should be banned from all Catholic libraries since it does not represent the Church's teaching on purgatory at all. Other Roman theologians, such as Scott Hahn, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Regis Martin, and even Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, have spoken of purgatory as a place not of pain and suffering, but a place of great joy and hope.

If the idea that purgatory is little more than a temporary Hell, a place of agony, torment and torture, persists, then it persists primarily on the level the popular piety of the masses. But it is certainly by no means the "official" teaching of even Roman Catholicism, let alone the entire Catholic Church East and West.

But on the whole I believe you are correct. And I'm grateful for your enlightening reply.

From the Baltimore Catechism:

"Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?

A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins."

Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?

A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0104/_P2I.HTM


How would you understand the claim that we must undergo punishment for sins, and that God's justice demands it?