If the universe is infinite, does EVERTHING necessarily exist?

Qoeleth · #1 May 28, '12, 7:37 pm

Let us assume that the universe is infinite, either temporally or spatially.

That would seem to imply that EVERYTHING which is possible, must exist, someplace or sometime. Every combination of atoms must occur as some point. Let me illustrate- take a 5,000 carat, flawless, red diamond. The chances of that particular combination of atoms might be 0.000000000001% (even less, but you get the idea!). Now, in an infinite universe, that highly improbable combination must occur, sooner or later.

The same could be said of a unicorn, or a perfect doppelganger of any person. Or, like an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters- who will sooner or later write "Hamlet". Or the infinite Library in Borges' story.

Now, in defence of the claim that the universe is spatially infinite, I cite Luctetius' story of the spear- go to the 'edge' of the Universe, and throw a spear- there is either more space, or more matter, thus the Universe continues. In either case the Universe must be infinite.

Now, Lucretius argues that if the Universe is infinite spatially, there must be an infinite amount of matter too, Otherwise the matter would be infinitely diluted in space, and never come into contact with each other.

Thus it would seem that everything which is possible to exist, must exist.

Poseidon · #2 May 28, '12, 7:51 pm

I've heard this before, and I'm not sure I agree with it. The universe could indeed be infinite, and if it is an infinity of matter like we see here in the part of the universe we're in then yes, your logic follows. But if the universe is a whole bunch of empty space then there doesn't have to be anything in it - we could just be in the only part of the universe that has any matter in it, and the rest could just be empty.

TheTrueCentrist · #3 May 28, '12, 8:57 pm

No. Consider the case of an infinitely repeating universe. There may only be one "unit cell" that is repeated over and over. In this case, all the unique things that exist are contained in one unit cell, and repeated in every other cell.

Also, consider the case of the square circle.

catholictiger · #4 May 28, '12, 9:00 pm

I would think that given an infinite amount of time everything would eventually exist. excluding of course contradictory terms, like a square circle.

THP · #5 May 28, '12, 9:09 pm

I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure its widely accepted that the universe is finite and in fact contracting or getting smaller.

The mind runs into all sorts of problems when we start contemplating infinity because of the linear nature of time.

itullian · #6 May 28, '12, 9:23 pm

given an infinite amount of matter, energy, space and time, yes eveything would exist.

slotty · #7 May 28, '12, 9:24 pm

Sorry this is slightly off topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by THP

I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure its widely accepted that the universe is finite and in fact contracting or getting smaller.

The mind runs into all sorts of problems when we start contemplating infinity because of the linear nature of time.

Latest Nobel prize winner for physics actually said no it's growing exponentially faster. (I think I read the brief a while ago)

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...1/popular.html

slotty · #8 May 28, '12, 9:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

Thus it would seem that everything which is possible to exist, must exist.

If you flip a coin you have a 1 in 2 chance of it being heads.

However just because you flip it twice doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to have seen the "heads" side show up.

sooner or later it will show up heads so I would suspect the valid statement would be.

"Everything which is possible to exist will have existed, exists or will exist at some point in time"

that's just my thoughts on it

martininthefiel · #9 May 28, '12, 9:51 pm

God is infinite, but that does not mean that His creation is. God exists outside of space and time. We know His creation had a beginning point, and we are told that this world will have an end, so by definition, it is not infinite. The universe was created by the righteous Will of God, and exists at His pleasure.

The Holy Trinity is the Alpha and the Omega--what was, what is, and what is to be. Everything else is created.

THP · #10 May 28, '12, 10:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotty

Sorry this is slightly off topic

Latest Nobel prize winner for physics actually said no it's growing exponentially faster. (I think I read the brief a while ago)

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...1/popular.html

Interesting article. Its been years since physics and I've never studied astronomy. It seems by looking at Type 1a supernovas the universe is exponentially expanding (I will take their word for it!) but they didn't say it would continue to do so indefinitely. This is for people much smarter than me to figure out.

**tonyrey** · #11 May 28, '12, 10:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

Let us assume that the universe is infinite, either temporally or spatially.

That would seem to imply that EVERYTHING which is possible, must exist, someplace or sometime. Every combination of atoms must occur as some point. Let me illustrate- take a 5,000 carat, flawless, red diamond. The chances of that particular combination of atoms might be 0.000000000001% (even less, but you get the idea!). Now, in an infinite universe, that highly improbable combination must occur, sooner or later.

The same could be said of a unicorn, or a perfect doppelganger of any person. Or, like an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters- who will sooner or later write "Hamlet". Or the infinite Library in Borges' story.

Now, in defence of the claim that the universe is spatially infinite, I cite Luctetius' story of the spear- go to the 'edge' of the Universe, and throw a spear- there is either more space, or more matter, thus the Universe continues. In either case the Universe must be infinite.

Now, Lucretius argues that if the Universe is infinite spatially, there must be an infinite amount of matter too, Otherwise the matter would be infinitely diluted in space, and never come into contact with each other.

Thus it would seem that everything which is possible to exist, must exist.

Everything physical!

TS Aquinas · #12 May 28, '12, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by THP

Interesting article. Its been years since physics and I've never studied astronomy. It seems by looking at Type 1a supernovas the universe is exponentially expanding (I will take their word for it!) but they didn't say it would continue to do so indefinitely. This is for people much smarter than me to figure out.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that physics say the amount of energy required for an oscillation or the Big Church theory exceeds the amount of energy left in the universe. If retraction would happen, we'd already see it happening and not expanding at a faster rate than before. All signs point to the Big Chill theory. I could be mistaken about this, I'll leave it to one of our regular posting physicists to correct or elaborate on.

THP · #13 May 28, '12, 10:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS Aquinas

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that physics say the amount of energy required for an oscillation or the Big Church theory exceeds the amount of energy left in the universe. If retraction would happen, we'd already see it happening and not expanding at a faster rate than before. All signs point to the Big Chill theory. I could be mistaken about this, I'll leave it to one of our regular posting physicists to correct or elaborate on.

Hmmm. . . At the same time in the article it notes that 95% of matter/energy is "dark" and we can't directly measure it. Fun to ponder, I wish I was better at math.

Qoeleth · #14 May 29, '12, 1:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotty

If you flip a coin you have a 1 in 2 chance of it being heads.

However just because you flip it twice doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to have seen the "heads" side show up.

sooner or later it will show up heads so I would suspect the valid statement would be.

"Everything which is possible to exist will have existed, exists or will exist at some point in time"

that's just my thoughts on it

Agreed. If the universe is spatially infinite, that would be like an infinite number of coin tosses (or dice rolls) going on at the same time. So, just like, if you tossed a coin an infinite number of times, sooner or later you will get 100 heads in a row, in the same way, an occurence or arrangment of atoms is bound to be happening somewhere or sometime in an infinite universe.

Or is it?

Qoeleth · #15 May 29, '12, 1:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist

No. Consider the case of an infinitely repeating universe. There may only be one "unit cell" that is repeated over and over. In this case, all the unique things that exist are contained in one unit cell, and repeated in every other cell.

Also, consider the case of the square circle.

The square circle, as an impossibility (i.e. literally a zero probability event), would not occur, even in an infinite universe.

Now, the possibility of an infinitely repeating universe, if the universe is temporally infinite, but spatially finite Let me prove it. Let's imagine a particular state of the entire universe (down to the arrangement of every single atom in the universe), at a given point in time. Now, if the universe is infinite in time, sooner or later that exact state is bound to re-occur (as a non-zeroproability event). Once it does re-occur, everything will necessarily repeat in exactly the same way. So, a temporally infinite (but spatially finite) universe is necessarily a repeating universe.