Eastern Catholicism's Relationship with Western Theology and Tradition

[Elizium23]

In light of this article on CatholicCulture.org and lack of evidence to the contrary, I may have been hasty in saying that there are doctrinal errors in Emmerich's writings. Indeed, the article says that the writings have been recommended by holy priests, bishops, and even St. John Neumann, so I retract my opinion, and I blame a very poorly written Wikipedia article for most of this...

[ByzCathCantor]

Originally Posted by Volodymyr

O! Very confusing contraction of history to its important "ultramontane" moments. But what is this concerning such - caste system which keeps "them" from being faithful to Lord's mission. Perhaps I misunderstand - what is the accusation of "caste system" meaning???? Perhaps language problem for non English speakers - perhaps some kind hidden (from me) profound meaning.

No, dear brother. I think your command of English is perfect in this instance.

[Josephene]

Originally Posted by Elizium23

In light of this article on CatholicCulture.org and lack of evidence to the contrary, I may have been hasty in saying that there are doctrinal errors in Emmerich's writings. Indeed, the article says that the writings have been recommended by holy priests, bishops, and even St. John Neumann, so I retract my opinion, and I blame a very poorly written Wikipedia article for most of this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Catherine_Emmerich -

Bl.Emmerich reportedly was illiterate , thus depended on Brentano for her writings ; thus , the comment that she did not wirte down the visions has to be very true ; having read how Brentano had converted from having been an athiest , from his experince , unusre if he would fabricate data , even though, like in all visions, subjective errors could be there ; yet , have not read anything about 'widespread condemnations ' and the finding of Bl.Mother's house in Ephesus based on her writings is pretty impressive - almost as though God sort of kept this mystery , to help authenticate the writings, for those who wish to !
Peace !

[Josephene]

Originally Posted by Volodymyr

O! Very confusing contraction of history to its important "ultramontane" moments. But what is this concerning such - caste system which keeps "them" from being faithful to Lord's mission. Perhaps I misunderstand - what is the accusation of "caste system" meaning???? Perhaps language problem for non English speakers - perhaps some kind hidden (from me) profound meaning.

Your unfamiliarity with the term ' caste system mentality ' is a blessing and does not have any hidden meaning - those of us who are familiar with that term would recognise same for what it is , as an area where we too say - " forgive us our trespasses... "

Peace !

[GaryTaylor]

Wow, even managed to place Mohammed in that article.

[Josephene]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Wow, even managed to place Mohammed in that article.

That the truth set many free, to live in The truth of recognising better what The Father wills !

[GaryTaylor]

Lets look at how this went..............

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ' , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,,,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East ..

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !



OK I'm following for the sake of arguement, but what Mohammad turning 18 has to do with anything I'm not catching.

Wouldn't that be about the same as saying in 588 etc etc etc happened, Oh, and it rained in China that day.

Now if it said Mohammad was born that day, wrote the Quran, won an impossible battle, anything but that he turned 18. however.........

What is the significance of Mohammad turning 18? Follow?

[Josephene]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Lets look at how this went..............

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ' , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,,,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East ..

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !



OK I'm following for the sake of arguement, but what Mohammad turning 18 has to do with anything I'm not catching.

Wouldn't that be about the same as saying in 588 etc etc etc happened, Oh, and it rained in China that day.

Now if it said Mohammad was born that day, wrote the Quran, won an impossible battle, anything but that he turned 18. however.........

What is the significance of Mohammad turning 18? Follow?

Apologies - had not realised that the comment was for clarification ; the connection between onset of Islam , esp. considering its role in The East ( Mohammed starting his mission, supposedly in 600 A.D , at age 30 ! ) and division in The Church seems relevant - thus the connection to the significant event of 588 and # 18 , for 6X3 ; may be irrelevant ..may be not !

Peace !

[Cavaradossi]

Originally Posted by Josephene

Not having followed at all the now deleted thread on this topic , hoping that sharing some perspectives would not tread unduly on any toes !

The current thread , on the adlimina visits in thissection of the forums also discusses some pertinent issues .

The Eastern Catholics are in an enviable position to be peacemakers , through justice ..

And for that to happen , we may have to tread the history back to Constantinople and Hagia Sophia .. ..

This maginificent Cathedral was dedicated , in the year 360 ( 6x6 x10 ! ) , with an icon of our Lord , as a FEMALE! to equate Him, with the created wisdom , personified in the Old Testament !

Plagues , earthquakes etc follow !

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ' , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,,,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East ..

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !

Year 589 - the Council in Spain is led to make some reparation , ascribiing the rightful role of The Son , in sending forth the Spirit ..

Sadly , instead of helping things along , by givinng honor to our Lord who had declared - 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father ' and had called the Apostles 'children' atleast on 3 occasions , this truth also gets used for furthur divisions ..

The Church , led by The Spirit of truth, meanwhile gets led into 'all truth ' - including God's goodness to our Mother , in granting Her the role in the New Creation , as the New Eve - including the privilege of being concieved in the mystery of Immaculate nature , by her holy parents ..to be able to accept with total trust , the awesome , supernatural mystery of Incarnation - when we recognise how in the Jewish custom, a female is not even allowed in the holy of holies , gives us an idea of the extent of trust such an act would entail - to undo the lack of trust of our first parents !

And we are then led furthur , to the goodness of our Father , for our sake too , who rewards Her by not just ' falling asleep ' but assuming Her , into heaven ; by asking us to believe in same,with the certainity of a Dogma , we thus are being led more into grasping the dignity of our human nature , at a time when we could easily loose sight of same ; also to help us of the certainity of the Motherly help and love that many need and yearn for , in these times - since She is the enemy of our enemy !

Granting too , for The Church , in these confusing times, the gift of Dogma of papal infallibilty , again empowering us with the trust needed that by taking in these essential guidelines to walk the narrow path confidantly , we are spared much !

Thus, we come to the issues of holiness in marriage , priestly celibacy - both may be even requiring heroic holiness , in our times !

And the Church trustingly tell us - we can , esp. so , if we embrace with trust the Dogmas of our faith too , to empower our nature , in The Spirit .

Thus , in union with The Lord's will , offering up all thoughts, words and deeds, including adlimina visits, or even the failings and call for mercy , all of it to become powerful occasions for for the infilling of The Spirit , all through The Church ,..

for the cause of unity ..and all the tremendous fruit that can come from same , as has been partially witnessed by efforts of esp. Pope John Paul11 , in the fall of communism !


Thus , the Cardinal's words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members ..this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !

Blessings !

Wow, is this the official teaching of your Church? In what magisterial documents may I find more details?

[Josephene]

Originally Posted by Cavaradossi

Wow, is this the official teaching of your Church? In what magisterial documents may I find more details?

Well, as can be inferred , the Dogmatic parts in there are the teachings of The Church , for all , esp. so for Catholics ; the obsevations on the historical events are just that , in efforts to help to find the path back !

Peace !

[ByzCathCantor]

Originally Posted by Josephene

Not having followed at all the now deleted thread on this topic

... the following is nonetheless concluded:

Originally Posted by Josephene

Thus , the Cardinal's words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members ..this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !

In summary:

• The mission of the Eastern Churches was thwarted
• The reason provided was a "caste system mentality"
• The result was that these Churches were "prevented" from being faithful to the Lord's mission
• The Eastern Churches can make up for this failure by "shedding away destructive old traditions"

Thus, it is clearly concluded that the married priesthood is/was a "destructive" tradition.

Further, it is concluded that the Eastern Churches have lived in failure and error for hundreds of years, simply because of a self-imposed sense of inferiority, entirely through their own fault.

The Cardinal has offered the means by which to cure all of this, that is, by the Eastern Churches shedding their rightful traditions and disciplines, most prominently, the married priesthood.

[Josephene]

The mention of the 'destructive traditions ' was not about married clergy per se but about the history of walking away from The Church , based on dissidence over such a rather peripheral issue , into a system that have traditions that are destructive ; those destructive traditions vary depending on the history of the particular Church - caste system influence only one of them : for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily !

Peace !

[ByzCathCantor]

Originally Posted by Josephene

The mention of the 'destructive traditions ' was not about married clergy per se but about the history of walking away from The Church , based on dissidence over such a rather peripheral issue , into a system that have traditions that are destructive ; those destructive traditions vary depending on the history of the particular Church - caste system influence only one of them : for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily !

So the Eastern Catholic Churches have been systematically disloyal ...

[Cristiano]

Originally Posted by ByzCathCantor

So the Eastern Catholic Churches have been systematically disloyal ...

Yes disloyal for not being Latins.

[dcointin]

/popcorn