How can I get closer to Holy Mary in addition to praying

[BornAgainRN]

Originally Posted by Christine85

When Jesus was born she did pretty much flee to the wilderness as they were running from Herod

The problem though lies in the fact that Revelation 12:1 is used to support the Assumption of Mary. So, if this passage has to do with the Assumption of Mary, which would have occurred sometimes after Pentecost (the last mention of Mary in the Bible), then why is she LATER fleeing into the wilderness, later in the chapter, if she supposed to be in Heaven? You've got the events backwards (Mary's Assumption in to Heaven - Revelation 12:1) & THEN Mary 'fleeing' into the wilderness from Herod - Revelation 12:6 & 14). See the problem?

The 'Woman' is actually Israel who Jesus was 'born' out of the tribe of Judah:

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1)

"Now he [Joseph] had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father [Jacob: AKA: Israel] rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?" (Genesis 37:9-10)

Joseph & his brothers are the sons of Israel. Joseph is the 'sun,' his wife is the 'moon,' & Joseph & his brothers are the 'twelve stars' (Joseph being the twelfth). In the future Tribulation period, God's focus with be on Israel (the 'Woman') again - his 'wife' according to the Old Testament.

[TimothyH]

Originally Posted by BornAgainRN

The problem though lies in the fact that Revelation 12:1 is used to support the Assumption of Mary. So, if this passage has to do with the Assumption of Mary, which would have occurred sometimes after Pentecost (the last mention of Mary in the Bible), then why is she LATER fleeing into the wilderness, later in the chapter, if she supposed to be in Heaven? You've got the events backwards (Mary's Assumption in to Heaven - Revelation 12:1) & THEN Mary 'fleeing' into the wilderness from Herod - Revelation 12:6 & 14). See the problem?

The problem is that you are reading Revelation like an historical account, like a chronological timeline of what will happen, or as if it is an article in a newspaper. It's apocryphal literature, not meant to be read that way. It is also a highly spiritual work, based on the visions of a mystic.

Much of Revelation points backward to what has happened as well as forward to what will happen. Many verses in Revelation are also echos of, or even full restatements of Old Testament scripture. Take for example the locusts in Revelation 9

The appearance of the locusts was like that of horses ready for battle. On their heads they wore what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, and they had hair like women’s hair. Their teeth were like lions’ teeth, and they had chests like iron breastplates. The sound of their wings was like the sound of many horse-drawn chariots racing into battle. They had tails like scorpions, with stingers; with their tails they had power to harm people for five months. (Revelation 9:7-10)

This is a reference to a real locus invasion which has already happened and which was written about by the prophet Joel.

What the cutter left, the swarming locust has devoured; What the swarming locust left, the hopper has devoured; What the hopper left, the consuming locust has devoured. ... For a nation invaded my land, powerful and past counting, with teeth like a lion’s, fangs like those of a lioness. It has stripped bare my vines, splintered my fig tree, shearing off its bark and throwing it away, until its branches turn white. (Joel 1:4,6-7)

and again...

Their appearance is that of horses; like war horses they run. Like the rumble of chariots they hurtle across mountaintops; Like the crackling of fiery flames devouring stubble; Like a massive army in battle formation. Before them peoples tremble, every face turns pale. (Joel 2:4-6)

The locust in Revelation 9 is a reference to what has already happened, as documented in the Old Testament by the prophet Joel. This is just one example of many such references.

The reason Revelation is at the end of the Bible is because God assumes that we have read and understood everything that comes before it. Revelation does not stand on its own as only a prophetic work, but as apocalyptic literature, it references both backwards in time and forwards, and much of the imagery in the Book of Revelation comes from the Old Testament. Comprehension of all of the Old Testament is therefor, a prerequisite for proper comprehension of the Book of Revelation.

Lets not turn this thread into a discussion of marian references and proper interpetation of the Book of Revelation. And so let's stay on topic in this thread.

The OP has asked how he can get closer to Mary. Let's address that and take the debate about marian verses in Revelation or how to properly interpret the Book of Revelation to another thread.

-Tim-

[BornAgainRN]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

The problem is that you are reading Revelation like an historical account, like a chronological timeline of what will happen, or as if it is an article in a newspaper. It's apocryphal literature, not meant to be read that way. It is also a highly spiritual work, based on the visions of a mystic.

Much of Revelation points backward to what has happened as well as forward to what will happen. Many verses in Revelation are also echos of, or even full restatements of Old Testament scripture. Take for example the locusts in Revelation 9

The appearance of the locusts was like that of horses ready for battle. On their heads they wore what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, and they had hair like women’s hair. Their teeth were like lions’ teeth, and they had chests like iron breastplates. The sound of their wings was like the sound of many horse-drawn chariots racing into battle. They had tails like scorpions, with stingers; with their tails they had power to harm people for five months. (Revelation 9:7-10)

This is a reference to a real locus invasion which has already happened and which was written about by the prophet Joel.

What the cutter left, the swarming locust has devoured; What the swarming locust left, the hopper has devoured; What the hopper left, the consuming locust has devoured. ... For a nation invaded my land, powerful and past counting, with teeth like a lion’s, fangs like those of a lioness. It has stripped bare my vines, splintered my fig tree, shearing off its bark and throwing it away, until its branches turn white. (Joel 1:4,6-7)

and again...

Their appearance is that of horses; like war horses they run. Like the rumble of chariots they hurtle across mountaintops; Like the crackling of fiery flames devouring stubble; Like a massive army in battle formation. Before them peoples tremble, every face turns pale. (Joel 2:4-6)

The locust in Revelation 9 is a reference to what has already happened, as documented in the Old Testament by the prophet Joel. This is just one example of many such references.

The reason Revelation is at the end of the Bible is because God assumes that we have read and understood everything that comes before it. Revelation does not stand on its own as only a prophetic work, but as apocalyptic literature, it references both backwards in time and forwards, and much of the imagery in the Book of Revelation comes from the Old Testament. Comprehension of all of the Old Testament is therefor, a prerequisite for proper comprehension of the Book of Revelation.

Lets not turn this thread into a discussion of marian references and proper interpetation of the Book of Revelation. And so let's stay on topic in this thread.

The OP has asked how he can get closer to Mary. Let's address that and take the debate about marian verses in Revelation or how to properly interpret the Book of Revelation to another thread.

-Tim-

Tim, I agree that we should keep on topic. I was merely responding to who the 'Woman' was in Revelation 12:1 based on Genesis. I also agree that a proper understanding of Revelation must be understood by first having a proper understanding of the rest of the Bible - first, which is why posted Genesis 37:5-10. Revelation is a highly symbolic book, & in order to understand it, we have to allow Scripture to answer Scripture. Plus, Daniel is a highly apocalyptic book, which was full of symbols, which we are able to discern by comparing them to other places in Scripture. Likewise, all the images in Revelation, including the 'Woman' in Revelation 12:1 can be discerned from previous Scripture, like the 'Woman' in Revelation 12:1 (c.f. - Genesis 37:5-10).

[Bible is truth]

Originally Posted by ready

Dear BornAgain RN,

You say Mary was sinful because the Bible says she was "born under the law." Yes, she was born under the law because she was born human and took on human flesh, but she was also born immaculate, free from all sin. This is infallable teaching of the Church. And Mary never sinned once in her whole life! What an extraordinary woman! The Mother of God, and our Mother

........................................ ...............
Dangerous! never sinned in all her life, Jesus said no-one is without sin,( agreed Immaculate conception )
look again into what Jesus said.
This maybe man's way of thinking here.....I am not sure of where the idea of never sinned came from? please explain so I may understand where this idea came from and who teaches this. Many thanks.

[ready]

Originally Posted by Bible is truth

........................................ ...............
Dangerous! never sinned in all her life, Jesus said no-one is without sin,( agreed Immaculate conception )
look again into what Jesus said.
This maybe man's way of thinking here.....I am not sure of where the idea of never sinned came from? please explain so I may understand where this idea came from and who teaches this. Many thanks.

It is the Church's infallible teaching that Mary never sinned. The Universal Ordinary Magisterium is infallible in all she teaches on faith and morals, and it is the Universal Ordinary Magisterium that teaches that Mary never sinned. Best wishes!

[Dejagirl]

Your question really hit home for me. Many years ago, I felt the same way and asked myself this very same question.

What brought me closer to our blessed mother was most certainly the rosary. I began saying my rosary more frequently and I asked the Lord and blessed mother to bring me closer to her. It was definately something I felt strongly was missing with my faith, and for me the conversion/feeling of closeness to her was almost instantaneous.

Now each night when I go to sleep and say my prayers, I talk to our mother. I truly feel in my heart that she is my mother, and I love her deeply. I hope you will experience this same closeness to her and soon. She loves you so!

[Tigg]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

What a beautiful testimony. Thank you!

Did your friend ever tell you how she herself experienced her change of heart?

Both of us were becoming uncomfortable with some of the things we were seeing in our prayer group. A certain pride, for instance, in the charisms that had been given and sometimes a criticism directed toward the Church. We would hear false statements and discuss the harm we were afraid they might do. Then she began to notice signs in her daily prayer that always seemed to direct her path back toward the more traditional. She had started, unbeknownst to me, collecting and copying the material (that I received copies of) that always led back to solid church teaching. She had a prior devotion to Our Lady that was once again awakened within her spirit by the pondering of these documents. My conversion was a little like St. Paul........when my eyes were opened and I saw my own rebellious heart for what it was, it felt like I had been knocked on my fanny!

I will also say that both of us felt like a new world had opened up to us and we literally devoured some of the writings of the saints, altho we had read them years before - they were a new treasure to explore.

I believe it is an absolute necessity for us to draw closer to our Holy Mother during this age as one of her titles is the "Destroyer of Heresies." We are living in very precarious times surrounded by many dangers and even apostasy. Ever notice that the most mis-directed within the Church, the dissidents who spread heterodoxy, don't seem to gravitate toward the most blessed source of goodness we have!

[ready]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

She could speak in the past tense, even though Jesus had not yet acomplished his work on the Cross, because God applied Christ's redemtion to her back into time, in the same way in which Christ's redemption is applied to us forward in time. Mary was ransomed, redeemed, and saved before she was born. God is not limited by time, and that is how Christ could save her before she was born.


-Tim-

Dear BornAgainRN,

Tim has explained my last post, and has done a very good job at it. Peace!

[Bible is truth]

Originally Posted by ready

It is the Church's infallible teaching that Mary never sinned. The Universal Ordinary Magisterium is infallible in all she teaches on faith and morals, and it is the Universal Ordinary Magisterium that teaches that Mary never sinned. Best wishes!

Thank you for your reply.
I have my own ideas on who you are mentioning as above, could you put my mind at rest please, who is it ,a person? people ? or who specifically ,a group of people, and is The Universal Ordinary Magisterium a book of rules..., forgive my ignorance on these matters
Many Thanks.

[Tigg]

As the title of this thread is "How can I get closer to Holy Mary" perhaps those who are questioning Church teaching regarding Marionology would like to start another thread in the Non-Catholics or Apologetics sub forum????

[ready]

Originally Posted by Bible is truth

Thank you for your reply.
I have my own ideas on who you are mentioning as above, could you put my mind at rest please, who is it ,a person? people ? or who specifically ,a group of people, and is The Universal Ordinary Magisterium a book of rules..., forgive my ignorance on these matters
Many Thanks.

The Magisterium is 1) the act of teaching and 2) what is taught or proposed for belief.

The Universal Ordinary Magisterium is the teaching of the hierarchy of the Church whether in a council or dispersed around the world concerning faith and morals. The teaching is free from error. It is doctrine taught unanimously. It is when the Church preaches a revealed doctrine. It is found in universal teaching of doctors of the Church and theologians explaining that doctrine with constant consent because the Church exercises vigilance over doctrines. It is found in encyclicals as well. I hope this is helpful enough. You could do a Google Search. Peace!

[Bible is truth]

Originally Posted by ready

The Magisterium is 1) the act of teaching and 2) what is taught or proposed for belief.

The Universal Ordinary Magisterium is the teaching of the hierarchy of the Church whether in a council or dispersed around the world concerning faith and morals. The teaching is free from error. It is doctrine taught unanimously. It is when the Church preaches a revealed doctrine. It is found in universal teaching of doctors of the Church and theologians explaining that doctrine with constant consent because the Church exercises vigilance over doctrines. It is found in encyclicals as well. I hope this is helpful enough. You could do a Google Search. Peace!

Many Thanks for your help

[ready]

Originally Posted by Bible is truth

Many Thanks for your help

Glad to help!