Snake-handling and Sola Scriptura - Page 5

epan · #61 May 31, '12, 9:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

http://news.yahoo.com/serpent-handli...opstories.html

The perils of Sola Scriptura and private interpretation of Scripture.

I've seen vids of this. These people go into ecstatic states. Why don't they keep anti-venom on hand?

ltwin · #62 May 31, '12, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by epan

I've seen vids of this. These people go into ecstatic states. Why don't they keep anti-venom on hand?

Because that would not be adhering to the interpretation of the verses in question. If they are promised divine protection from snake bites, then there is no need to use anti-venom. It would defeat the whole purpose of the ritual.

ltwin · #63 May 31, '12, 11:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustaServant

Isn't this more of an example of taking charismatic/ Pentecostal theology to its logical conclusion?
If tongues and faith healing are still signs of the Spirit. why don't we see Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland handle snakes and drink poison?

Most Pentecostals interpret this verse as a promise that God will confirm the Gospel with signs following. Think about it, if you are a missionary and you get bit by a snake and God supernaturally heals you, wouldn't that be great confirmation to those you are trying to reach that God is real and that their is real power in the Gospel being preached.

We certainly do not advocate making a ritual out of it. To make a ritual out of this verse is to take it completely out of context and destroy the plain meaning of scripture. And we certainly don't advocate being stupid. We may be crazy, but we no better than to tempt God. If I were in a service and someone brought out a bag of snakes, I would be the first one to call animal control.

From what I understand, this is really a very isolated geographical/cultural practice. It emerged in Appalachia and I'm not aware that it has spread further than that.

GaryTaylor · #64 Jun 1, '12, 1:42 am

First mistake is the literal view as snakes as evil. Lucifer manifested himself as a serpent. Thus a symbolic translation from Genesis foward. He is not a poison snake, though its a very good analogy of manifested evil.

When we say Faith, should this be the case then why not walk up with a grenade and pull the pin to test your faith? Why not use a revolver with one bullet and play the odds. Every time you pick up a Cottonmouth your odds of being bit increase each and every time. Its called probability. Like Lotto, you can't win if you don't play, well here you won't die if you don't play.

Does the ability to handle snakes come into play, or should one just grab one by the tail?

Why not walk into the Lions den like Daniel did? Martyrs for the faith?

There a difference from stepping in the gap because of belief, because this is what that present moment required, then foolishly thinking you should place yourself in harms way to test God thus the gift of life given to you, thus mortality.

Life was given as a gift thus what is right is respect it and choose to live, easier said than done for some. Should at some point your Faith be tested by God, then you make the choice, if you even want to call it a choice. Nevertheless the dwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn't reside in the fact of mortality tested and overcome. For we cannot say the Holy Spirit was not in the first 3-centuries of Martyrs, let alone all the rest including today. They don't foolishly choose death, in fact they choose life till no other option presents itself. Then their life is truly in Gods hands. Then the act is not only sancification but also a lasting message of the Lords will be it you live or not.

Playing with seriously dangerous snakes is just irrational behavior. Life is the test, not your mortality in it and if you have the ability to take it.

Self destructive behavior on the installment plan is all this is under the illusion of a misguided understanding.

Perhaps I'm not understanding here.

ltwin · #65 Jun 1, '12, 1:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Perhaps I'm not understanding here.

You're making perfect sense to me.

cajunhillbilly · #66 Jun 1, '12, 3:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustaServant

You live up near Morgantown right Cajun? Right across the border is Greene County Pa which is almost as wild and desolate as parts of WV.

But you're still pretty close to civilization.
Most of these SH cults are on the border of WV and Kentucky.
Curiously, where the Hatfield and McCoy fueds took place.

Yes I used to live in Morgantown. Live near Dallas now. I also remember attending a weekly prayer group at a local Franciscan friary. I believe though that the friary is no longer active. Not even sure if it is open.

TheRealJuliane · #67 Jun 1, '12, 7:14 am

My dog can deal with cottonmouths. But that's what God made her for. She just grabs the snake real fast, bites it and SHAKES the heck out of it, before it can even start to strike her. It's kinda scary but seriously cool that she's able to do this.

However, I'd be very nervous about a rattler - their venom is stronger. A dog can survive a cottonmouth bite, and so can a person, but a rattler? No.

tarboy · #68 Jun 1, '12, 7:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

It's the private interpretation of Scripture, a concomitant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, that results in snake-handling and other aberrant beliefs.

Jim,
Do you honestly think there aren't Catholics that have performed some dangerous act and beforehand prayed, "I'll leave it up to God's Will if I live or die?"

Acts like this are more a sign of spiritual immaturity,
only the juvenile think God responds to our capricious tests of his love for us.

Darran · #69 Jun 1, '12, 7:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarboy

I hope you don't believe what you posted

Do you honestly think there aren't Catholics that have performed some dangerous act and beforehand prayed, "I'll leave it up to God's Will if I live or die?"

Acts like this are more a sign of spiritual maturity

Immaturity I take it you mean. It is that as well, but in this case scripture was his basis for doing what he did.

If any Catholics did the same thing they would have also been self interpreting.

robwar · #70 Jun 1, '12, 7:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

A question for believers: have you considered that this poor man was genuine in his belief, as genuine as you are in yours, and that his experience of belief was just like yours, in what you believe, and that your belief - in scripture, in life everlasting, in hell, in creation - may be just as unsoundly based? Or does the difference in what is believed in mean that such manifest failures of belief have no impact on you?

Yes, I am very sure that he and the churches that practice these things are very very sincere. It is all too easy to point fingers at them and consider them the freak show of pentacostalism. Probably the better response is to learn and consider what is false views or beliefs and where they can lead people. Heresies can have very tragic and deadly consequences. when people start to read and believe in false teaching and views they may end up with a terrible end. I view these unfortunate people as the end of what the name it claim it faith/wealth/health gospel will get you. It is too easy to look at them and point a finger and say OMG but for those who read some of the popular "faith claim it" teachers or watch them on TV, this is the end result. Its the same thing as those parents who won't take their children to the Dr because that would be a lack of faith. False teaching and religious views have sometimes very deadly consequences.

robwar · #71 Jun 1, '12, 7:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarboy

Jim,
Do you honestly think there aren't Catholics that have performed some dangerous act and beforehand prayed, "I'll leave it up to God's Will if I live or die?"

Acts like this are more a sign of spiritual immaturity,
only the juvenile think God responds to our capricious tests of his love for us.

In reality, it would be the end result of faith/health and wealth name it claim it. I think I have read that they believe that they drink and handle these things and if they have no sin, they will not be harmed, so since this poor pastor died in their thinking he must have had some sin in his life which resulted in his death. This is what heresy can lead to and why heresies are dangerous and to be avoided.

ebonykawai · #72 Jun 2, '12, 5:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

It's part of the same Biblical verse. Until reading your post, I hadn't heard of any poison drinkers.

The CNN article said he drank strychnine and that his father died of strychnine poisoning in 1983.

Jim Dandy · #73 Jun 3, '12, 8:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarboy

Jim,
Do you honestly think there aren't Catholics that have performed some dangerous act and beforehand prayed, "I'll leave it up to God's Will if I live or die?"

Acts like this are more a sign of spiritual immaturity,
only the juvenile think God responds to our capricious tests of his love for us.

The Catholic Church does not teach Sola Scriptura with its subsidiary doctrine of private interpretation. A Catholic may "perform some dangerous act" but It's unlikely that he/she would base risky behavior on the New Testament, as snake-handlers do.

**pnewton** · #74 Jun 4, '12, 4:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estevao

I think it's distasteful for us to be piously thumping our "tradition". But this is the internet after all.

No one has claimed piety or thumped anything. I do not know what you mean. As Catholics, we do defend the authority of the Church and warn against going off in abherrent directions based on private interpretation. It is a thin line between snake handlers and many other non-denominational Christians, being only a matter of degree of deviance. Likewise, there is greater deviation in such private interpreters as the Jim Jones' and Davidians of the world. There is good reason why God had to leave a structure on Earth to provide authority for the Body of Christ.

Lochias · #75 Jun 4, '12, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

I entirely accept the genuineness of your faith, and thank you for sharing it in response to my question. But can you distinguish for me between the faith of the snake-handling man and your own? You too believe things because you have faith that scripture means a certain thing. Is there anything we non-believers can use to distinguish your faith from his?

The Catholic Church's teaching authority, being guided by the Holy Spirit, has never and will never teach someone that foolishly handling a deadly poisonous snake is safe and a sign of faith. There's your difference.