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  #1  
Old Jun 1, '12, 1:20 pm
GodHeals GodHeals is offline
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Default How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions? My Muslim friend was saying millions. He is trying to dismiss Christian / Catholic unity through the Holy Spirit basically saying if all those people had the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't have killed so many.

I realize some or most of it was defense of the Christians / Catholics, but there were some people who probably had other motivations and did some evils during the crusades and inquisitions.

I am wondering if there are any numbers to go off of. Also, I heard more protestants killed Catholics during other periods of time than Catholics killed during all of the crusades, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I could be wrong.

Thank you for your help!
Brian
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  #2  
Old Jun 1, '12, 2:15 pm
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Rich C Rich C is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

I believe the current academic count for the Spanish Inquisition is about 100 people over the span of 300 years. They were great record-keepers, however in the case of the crusades I'm not sure. There were about 10 major battles and a few major sieges. My guess would be ~100,000 people by the sword over a century or so. Including the crusades against heretics in Europe, maybe another 30,000.

I don't think the Church should be particularly ashamed of these things, although they were horrible no doubt, war always is.

Did you point out how absurd it is for Muslim to condemn Christianity for being too violent? Most Muslim lands were Christian lands they took by the sword (the rest were conquered from Zoroastrians and others). I mean, seriously.
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  #3  
Old Jun 1, '12, 2:24 pm
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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Originally Posted by GodHeals View Post
How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions? My Muslim friend was saying millions. He is ... basically saying if all those people had the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't have killed so many.
I would suspect that accurate numbers are hard to come by. However, the website DEATH BY GOVERNMENT is an exhaustive study of what it calls DEMOCIDE. I found this table http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB3.1.GIF that might help answer your question. Note that there were several “crusades” that did not involve the Middle East.
This http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.1.GIF is also an interesting table that might explain why there are wars in certain parts of the world.
As far as your friend’s comment is concerned, I would say that no Muslims would have been killed at all if they hadn’t conquered the Holy Land in the first place. Consider this:

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.

Stenhouse[1] lists only some of the events that took place in those 463 years, among them,
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber's mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.
While the pope has apologized for the Crusades, Muslims have never so much as acknowledged any responsibility. Why? The reason is that Islam is always right. Period.

For additional reading, see “The Real History of the Crusades” by Medieval historian Thomas F. Madden http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ld/wh0055.html

Notes:

[1] “The Crusades In Context” by Dr Paul Stenhouse http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/...-stenhouse.htm

[2] “JIHAD BEGOT THE CRUSADES”
Andrew Bostom http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...rticle_id=4467 [Two parts]

[3] “The Legacy of Jihad in Historical Palestine”
Andrew Bostom
http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...rticle_id=4999 [Two parts]
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  #4  
Old Jun 1, '12, 2:26 pm
GodHeals GodHeals is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich C View Post
I believe the current academic count for the Spanish Inquisition is about 100 people over the span of 300 years. They were great record-keepers, however in the case of the crusades I'm not sure. There were about 10 major battles and a few major sieges. My guess would be ~100,000 people by the sword over a century or so. Including the crusades against heretics in Europe, maybe another 30,000.

I don't think the Church should be particularly ashamed of these things, although they were horrible no doubt, war always is.

Did you point out how absurd it is for Muslim to condemn Christianity for being too violent? Most Muslim lands were Christian lands they took by the sword (the rest were conquered from Zoroastrians and others). I mean, seriously.
Thanks for the numbers.

Yea, I mentioned: "If you are talking about forcing people to submit to Allah, than that is where Christians differ and that is why the crusades took place in defense of Christians who were being forced by the Muslims to deny their beliefs in Jesus Christ."

I don't know much about the crusades and not sure I have the time or patience to do a serious study; although, it seems these days it would be good to have that knowledge with regards to evangelism! It isn't easy talking to Muslims and trying to shed light on the need for a sacrifice for our sins (Jesus Christ on the Cross).

Scott Hahn's CD has been helping a lot with regards to how Christians relate to God as Father verses Muslims as slaves: http://lighthousecatholicmediablog.b...cott-hahn.html

I am still trying to finish the CD and process it. We are slaves to Jesus Christ, but also Brothers to Him and Sons/Daughters to Our Father Who Art in Heaven.

I think it is a relational style that might have started with Issac and Ishmael as Scott Hahn talks about.
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  #5  
Old Jun 1, '12, 2:33 pm
GodHeals GodHeals is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
I would suspect that accurate numbers are hard to come by. However, the website DEATH BY GOVERNMENT is an exhaustive study of what it calls DEMOCIDE. I found this table http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB3.1.GIF that might help answer your question. Note that there were several “crusades” that did not involve the Middle East.
This http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.1.GIF is also an interesting table that might explain why there are wars in certain parts of the world.
As far as your friend’s comment is concerned, I would say that no Muslims would have been killed at all if they hadn’t conquered the Holy Land in the first place. Consider this:

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.
Thank you so much for the input. I appreciate it. Your comments are interesting regarding the timing of the crusades. On Catholic.com the Author has a download that I need to finish: http://www.catholic.com/search/content/crusades

God Bless You!
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  #6  
Old Jun 1, '12, 3:45 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodHeals View Post
How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions? My Muslim friend was saying millions. He is trying to dismiss Christian / Catholic unity through the Holy Spirit basically saying if all those people had the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't have killed so many.

I realize some or most of it was defense of the Christians / Catholics, but there were some people who probably had other motivations and did some evils during the crusades and inquisitions.

I am wondering if there are any numbers to go off of. Also, I heard more protestants killed Catholics during other periods of time than Catholics killed during all of the crusades, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I could be wrong.

Thank you for your help!
Brian

-

It is not recorded how many people were killed during the crusades. Nobody knows how many took part in the crusades; who died from other causes not related to the crusades; there could of been people who took part in the crusades and survived and died from other causes on the way home. I do not think there can be any accurate statistic. Apparently those on the Church records who sworn to be a crusader there were servants etc. that went with them who were not listed.

Most of the Middle East used to be Christian, then there was the emergence of Islam and the Muslims conquered most of the Middle East, and then Muslim armies started to go east in to Asia, south in to Africa and north in to Europe. I think in the book 'The Rise and fall of the Roman Empire' by Edward Gibbon, he says if the Christians had not blocked the Muslim advance they would of been teaching Arabic in Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne. Gibbon was not a Christian. The Crusades were not a coordinated army, and some crusaders would go off and pick their own fights and it got muddled.

Last edited by _Abyssinia; Jun 1, '12 at 4:00 pm.
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  #7  
Old Jun 1, '12, 3:50 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

I do not know. but there was no justification for any of the deaths. One was too many. It is grotesque to see people defend these terrible things.
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  #8  
Old Jun 1, '12, 4:07 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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I do not know. but there was no justification for any of the deaths. One was too many. It is grotesque to see people defend these terrible things.
So let's see. IF the Christians of the time had simply let the Muslims sack, pillage, and forcibly convert all of Europe, even if far more people had died because of that (not defending themselves so that they would not kill any of the poor Muslims) than ever died in the Crusades, would that have been all right with you?

Are you only condemning the Christians, or do nonChristian killers also have your thumbs down seal of disapproval?
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  #9  
Old Jun 1, '12, 4:30 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
So let's see. IF the Christians of the time had simply let the Muslims sack, pillage, and forcibly convert all of Europe, even if far more people had died because of that (not defending themselves so that they would not kill any of the poor Muslims) than ever died in the Crusades, would that have been all right with you?

Are you only condemning the Christians, or do nonChristian killers also have your thumbs down seal of disapproval?
Odd as it may seem to you I am opposed to all killing and oppression carried out for religious reasons, including the inquisition, the crusades, the Muslim wars of religious conquest, the Hindu and Muslim attacks during partition in India/Pakistan, the genocide of British Jews at York, the executions carried out by Thomas More, the Catholic fascist genocide in WWll Croatia, the burning of witches in America, 9/11 and the contemporary killing of Egyptian Christians by Muslims.

Last edited by Michael Francis; Jun 17, '12 at 2:44 pm. Reason: anti-religion image removed
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  #10  
Old Jun 1, '12, 4:52 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

Since we're trotting out cant, and not your usual thoughtful replies Hokomai:

How about Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler etc?

Any opinion on their atrocities?







You know the common denominator?

Humans.
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Old Jun 1, '12, 7:38 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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Originally Posted by triumphguy View Post
Since we're trotting out cant, and not your usual thoughtful replies Hokomai:

How about Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler etc?

Any opinion on their atrocities?

You know the common denominator?

Humans.
Yes, theirs were bad too. I sort of agree with you about my last post too. It's the human thing again.
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  #12  
Old Jun 1, '12, 7:59 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

Here's a good article:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...isition-primer


And about the Crusades:


http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...fm?recnum=4461




Peace,
Ed
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  #13  
Old Jun 1, '12, 8:21 pm
Mickey Finn Mickey Finn is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

All told? The low number is 1,000,000. (John Shertzer Hittell, "A Brief History of Culture" (1874) p.137: "In the two centuries of this warfare one million persons had been slain..." cited by White) The high number is 3,000,000.( Robertson, John M., "A Short History of Christianity" (1902) p.278. Cited by White
The various conflicts spaned approx. 236 years. Many different armies, and populations were involved.

Who won? The people who publish "History" books. I thnk..

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  #14  
Old Jun 1, '12, 9:49 pm
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Rolltide Rolltide is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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Originally Posted by Rich C View Post
I believe the current academic count for the Spanish Inquisition is about 100 people over the span of 300 years.
I'm an historian. The figures are certainly not in the millions as some claim, but 100 is too low, I know that for sure. The number has been revised SUBSTANTIALLY downward over the last few years. I think current estimates are that between 2,000 and 10,000 people were put to death by the Spanish Inquisition over about 300 years. That's an average of between 7 and 33 people per year. The most realistic guess right now is toward the lower end of that figure (4,000 or so).
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  #15  
Old Jun 2, '12, 7:56 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: How many people were killed in the crusades and inquisitions?

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Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
...
Are you only condemning the Christians, or do nonChristian killers also have your thumbs down seal of disapproval?
"Anyone who is aware of the high degree of selectivity of Leftist indignation, and of how they remain utterly impassive in the face of any injustice that doesn't serve to further their agenda, keeps their complaints in perspective." – Poster "Thucydides"
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