Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS? - Page 11

thewanderer · #**151** Jun 3, '12, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

Yes really.

John Paul II:

"Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all".

What exactly do you take this to mean?

reconman · #**152** Jun 3, '12, 10:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

Again you have failed to bother to actually understand all of what Thistle is saying.

If you understood what he meant by there is no saalvation outside of the Church I'm actually quite confident that you would agree with him, but for some reason you refuse to actually pay attention to what he is saying and instead insist on interpreting what he is saying as something completely different. Read his whole post. Read my whole original post. No, take a break and calm down, then come back and re-read both posts keeping in mind that they do not say what you think they say. Make an effort to figure out what they actually say as opposed to what you currently believe that they say. I honestly think we can work this out if you're willing to be open to the possibility that neither I nor Thistle are claiming what you seem to think that we are.

I read what you both said. I've read every post on this thread, So I'll whittle it down for you:

Can a Lutheran be saved?

sdegutis · #**153** Jun 3, '12, 10:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

This is completely false

What about this?

Quote:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Or this?

Quote:

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Or this?

Quote:

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia )

Or this?

Quote:

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Or this?

Quote:

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

thewanderer · #**154** Jun 3, '12, 10:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

I read what you both said. I've read every post on this thread, So I'll whittle it down for you:

Can a Lutheran be saved?

Yes, if he is baptized through one of the already mentioned forms of Baptism.

[Edit: This is not the only requirement for his salvation. Baptism is never the only requirement for salvation, but it is a requirement.]

reconman · #**155** Jun 3, '12, 10:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdegutis

What about this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Nice try, those are all quotes from popes and saints who lived before the reformation. (except for Pius IX), and that was encyclical dealing with heresy inside the church Since the catholic church was the only Christian Church back then, what else would you have them say?

And you still didn't address this:

John Paul II:

"Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all".

Melchior_ · #**156** Jun 3, '12, 10:43 pm

People are looking at this in a temporal sense, and when this happens we lose sight that God and Heaven exists beyond time.

I can safely say that only Catholics are *in* Heaven, because upon death God perhaps gives people a chance to acknowledge Him and the fullness of Truth of the Catholic faith once they die. This way, those on Earth who aren't Catholic get one more chance to accept Jesus. I believe this is where "invincible ignorance" and the like come into play, where upon their death Jesus shows Himself and the person says "oh crud, I HAD NO IDEA! I acknowledge you and your Church, Lord".

So could a righteous and virtuous Jew make it into Heaven? If once they die and profess the Catholic faith to Jesus Christ Himself then I would say yes. But WILL they say yes? Who knows. How they are on Earth and the attitude they carry will likely influence their answer. Protestants are a whole other bag of worms due to a shared Baptism and other such things.

Anyway, that's my theory, which I have zero idea if anyone within Church history has thought of it or written anything resembling what I posted above. It doesn't seem heretical though, which is always a good thing!

reconman · #**157** Jun 3, '12, 10:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

Yes, if he is baptized through one of the already mentioned forms of Baptism.

What if he was never exposed to the catholic church? What if he liked his Lutheran religion and politely turned down an offer to join the catholic church? Still going to heaven?

sdegutis · #**158** Jun 3, '12, 10:48 pm

The key here is understanding that one enters the Catholic Church via Baptism as through a door, so to speak.

And since we know there can be valid Baptisms performed outside of the Catholic Church, as long as they have the right form, matter, and intent, this means these Baptisms allow real entrance into the Catholic Church in a manner of speaking.

But only through truly invincible ignorance does one remain within the Catholic Church without actually being part of the visible Catholic Church. And this is where the grey area is, in defining what constitutes "invincible ignorance" for any given person. The good news though is that in a practical sense this doesn't matter to us, only to God. For our part, we only need to make sure we let people know about our lovely and True Faith and invite them to know Jesus Christ the most fully they can, through our beloved Church.

thewanderer · #**159** Jun 3, '12, 10:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

What if he was never exposed to the catholic church? What if he liked his Lutheran religion and politely turned down an offer to join the catholic church? Still going to heaven?

If he manages to receive baptism through one of the forms presented despite this, then yes, he has a shot at salvation.

If not, then no, not a chance.

reconman · #**160** Jun 3, '12, 10:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

If he manages to receive baptism through one of the forms presented despite this, then yes, he has a shot at salvation.

If not, then no, not a chance.

And how would you reconcile your assumption with this:

CCC 1260: ... "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved... "

thewanderer · #**161** Jun 3, '12, 10:53 pm

I'm just going to add that different theologians have different interpretations of who all can be included in the 'inculpable ignorance' clause. The Church has no official teaching on this yet, however, the Church does teach exactly what Thistle wrote in his post. One must receive baptism (in one of the forms already presented) in order to have any hope of salvation. Whether you like it or not that is the teaching of the Church. Always has been always will.

reconman · #**162** Jun 3, '12, 10:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

What exactly do you take this to mean?

I take JPII at his word, that he meant exactly what he said. How else would I take it?

sdegutis · #**163** Jun 3, '12, 10:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

Nice try, those are all quotes from popes and saints who lived before the reformation. Since the catholic church was the only Christian Church back then, what else would you have them say?

The only real difference between the Lutherans/Calvinists/etc and Montanists/Arians/etc are that the later heresies retained much popularity even until today, whereas the earlier heresies died out almost completely. But you can basically look at any heretical church, whether Lutheran or Pentecostal or Baptist or Docetist or Montanist or Sabellianist as the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

And you still didn't address this:

John Paul II: "Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all".

Obviously this isn't in contradiction to other Popes or the Church's teaching, even though at first glance it seems incompatible. The Church has already offered an interpretation of this, namely, that someone with invincible ignorance might be saved even though they never joined the Catholic Church. Only defining "invincible" is the hard part.

thewanderer · #**164** Jun 3, '12, 10:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconman

And how would you reconcile your assumption with this:

CCC 1260: ... "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved... "

Like I told you before, he can be saved through the implicit baptism of desire. if he is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of the Catholic Church then he is a perfect candidate for the implicit Baptism of desire, so long as he seeks the truth and does the will of God etc.

Again, i have to wonder whether or not you've actually read what Thistle wrote...

reconman · #**165** Jun 3, '12, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewanderer

I'm just going to add that different theologians have different interpretations of who all can be included in the 'inculpable ignorance' clause. The Church has no official teaching on this yet, however, the Church does teach exactly what Thistle wrote in his post. One must receive baptism (in one of the forms already presented) in order to have any hope of salvation. Whether you like it or not that is the teaching of the Church. Always has been always will.

Yea, not one of you has dealt with the ccc article in question. Apparently you all know better than the ccc. Which is the teaching of the church, whether you like it or not . Always has been, always will.