Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[Kathryn Ann]

Originally Posted by Zosimus41

Many people translate the Latin phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus as "Outside the Church there is no salvation." This translation does not seem entirely faithful to the Latin meaning, and contributes to the misunderstanding of the phrase.



The Latin word "extra" is both an adverb and preposition. Depending on its use in a sentence, the word has different meanings. When used to describe spatial relations between objects, the word is translated as "beyond" or "outside of"(e.g., beyond the creek is a tree; or, James is outside of the room). When used to describe abstract relations between concepts or intangible things, the word is commonly translated "without" (e.g., Without a method, it is difficult to teach). Within the phrase in question, extra is a preposition describing the abstract relationship of the Church to salvation. Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, "Without the Church there is no salvation." This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.

Catholics United for the faith!


Lex orandi, lex credendi How you pray is how you believe!

Thank you, that is very helpful. You are very kind to take the time to post this.
Kathryn Ann

[Pitcharan]

Originally Posted by Zosimus41

..... Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, "Without the Church there is no salvation." This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.
Catholics United for the faith!
Lex orandi, lex credendi How you pray is how you believe!

It is merely a restatement of the below OT and NT verses:
"...and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Gen 12:3c)
"...., for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22c)

[ready]

Somebody please answer this for me!

In his sermon a traditionalist priest says that Pope Benedict XVI does not believe that Jews need to be converted. Another traditionalist person I know has said the same thing. Are these two traditionalists mistaken about Pope Benedict XVI? Doesn't our Holy Father believe in evangelizing Jews? What could make these two traditionalists say this about our Holy Father? Your help with this is greatlly appreciated!

[ready]

Originally Posted by ready

Somebody please answer this for me!

In his sermon a traditionalist priest says that Pope Benedict XVI does not believe that Jews need to be converted. Another traditionalist person I know has said the same thing. Are these two traditionalists mistaken about Pope Benedict XVI? Doesn't our Holy Father believe in evangelizing Jews? What could make these two traditionalists say this about our Holy Father? Your help with this is greatlly appreciated!

I once read an article about this matter in a traditionalist newspaper and I after reading it I did not come to the same conclusion as these two traditionalists. I think the Pope has been misunderstood about this. Peace!

[ImmaculataFides]

Originally Posted by ready

Somebody please answer this for me!

In his sermon a traditionalist priest says that Pope Benedict XVI does not believe that Jews need to be converted. Another traditionalist person I know has said the same thing. Are these two traditionalists mistaken about Pope Benedict XVI? Doesn't our Holy Father believe in evangelizing Jews? What could make these two traditionalists say this about our Holy Father? Your help with this is greatlly appreciated!

Hi ready,

I must admit I am somewhat ignorant on this particular issue, but I will try my best.

After Vatican II, there was a common mentality among clergy in the Church that we should not evangelise to the Jews, that they should be left alone. This mis-conception was probably tied up to the belief of there being two covenants still in existence, the old covenant and the new. However, that belief is erroneous and heretical. The old covenant is no longer in effect. It can't be. It was fulfilled by Christ; not to mention that modern Judaism is a man made religion that is utterly anti-Christ and radically different from Old Testament Judaism.

The Church has consistently taught infallibly for 2000 years that outside of the Church, there is no salvation. Jews are not part of the Church of Christ. Therefore, we must evangelise to them to join this Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, so they may be saved. The Jews are no longer the chosen people. Catholics are.

I.F.

[Vouthon]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

The Jews are no longer the chosen people. Catholics are.

I.F.

That is patently false And it shows a total disregard for our Jewish brethren.

While the pope did not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ he did clearly say that the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope wrote. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

God never revokes his promises. The Jewish People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jews who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jewish Messiah.

Jews have a more natural right to be Catholic than any other people because they are still the Chosen People.

Also Jewish unbelief has a divine reason. God put a veil over their hearts so as to give Gentiles the chance to convert in droves. When the time of the Gentiles is completed, God himself will bring all his people into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

You are quite wrong.

In addition, the Old Covenant - while not salvific in any way - is not "finished" and modern Judaism is certainly not an anti-Christ religion. The Oral Torah actually has elements of genuine inspired truth and was the predecessor to Catholic Sacred Tradition. The New Testament embraces elements of the Oral Torah, so if that is your basis upon which to indict the modern rabbinical Jewish faith, then you'd better forget it.

CCC:
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been
revoked.

Pope John Paul II
The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “...the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked....”http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._the_Jews.html

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

The old covenant is no longer in effect. It can't be. It was fulfilled by Christ; not to mention that modern Judaism is a man made religion that is utterly anti-Christ and radically different from Old Testament Judaism. ......
The Jews are no longer the chosen people. Catholics are.

I.F.

UH-oh. Somebody's been watching that idiot Michael Voris' Vortex, where he takes a bunch of lies and distortions and "exposes" them by claiming they are true on Youtube.

Judaism is no more a "man-made" religion than Catholicism, or did you think Jesus told us we had to have huge Cathedrals, pews with kneelers, Rosaries and six candles on the altar?

The old covenant had nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah, never did, and nothing has changed about that Covenant that anyone knows.

To claim the Covenant is now just for Catholics is tantamount to being a mid-Acts dispensationalist. Talk about heresy!

How about you quote something the Church actually said about this.

AH! I see Vouthon already did. Good.

[sdegutis]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

The old covenant had nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah, never did, and nothing has changed about that Covenant that anyone knows.

To claim the Covenant is now just for Catholics is tantamount to being a mid-Acts dispensationalist. Talk about heresy!

How about you quote something the Church actually said about this.

Are you kidding? I can't tell if you're making some elaborate joke, or if you're serious. The Catechism says "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." And the Covenant is Catholicism. The New Covenant is available for all, but those who accept it will by definition be Catholic.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by sdegutis

The New Covenant is available for all, but those who accept it will by definition be Catholic.

You are talking about the "New Covenant." The Old Covenant is alive and well and unchanged.

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

[ready]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

Hi ready,

I must admit I am somewhat ignorant on this particular issue, but I will try my best.

After Vatican II, there was a common mentality among clergy in the Church that we should not evangelise to the Jews, that they should be left alone. This mis-conception was probably tied up to the belief of there being two covenants still in existence, the old covenant and the new. However, that belief is erroneous and heretical. The old covenant is no longer in effect. It can't be. It was fulfilled by Christ; not to mention that modern Judaism is a man made religion that is utterly anti-Christ and radically different from Old Testament Judaism.

The Church has consistently taught infallibly for 2000 years that outside of the Church, there is no salvation. Jews are not part of the Church of Christ. Therefore, we must evangelise to them to join this Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, so they may be saved. The Jews are no longer the chosen people. Catholics are.

I.F.

Thanks, ImmaculataFides! I appreciate your input!

[ImmaculataFides]

Originally Posted by Vouthon

That is patently false And it shows a total disregard for our Jewish brethren.

No it's not. It's the traditional teaching of the Church.

Originally Posted by Vouthon

While the pope did not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ he did clearly say that the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

Which is contrary to Church tradition. The Church teaches that outside of the Church is no salvation, and thus we must evangelise all non-Catholics to bring them into Christ's Church.

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. - Matthew 28:19

Originally Posted by Vouthon

God never revokes his promises. The Jewish People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jews who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jewish Messiah.

Not correct. The Jews who rejected Christ have been cut off from the House of Israel. Those Jews who converted and accepted Christ as the Messiah became the new chosen people; Catholics, which became made up of Jew and Gentile.

There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

Originally Posted by Vouthon

Jews have a more natural right to be Catholic than any other people because they are still the Chosen People.

No, they are not. They rejected Christ. Catholics are the new chosen people. The Old Testament prefigured the New. The Israelites prefigured Catholics today.

Originally Posted by Vouthon

Also Jewish unbelief has a divine reason. God put a veil over their hearts so as to give Gentiles the chance to convert in droves. When the time of the Gentiles is completed, God himself will bring all his people into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

That in no way suggests that we should not evangelise and seek the conversion of the Jews, and let them be damned until Our Saviour comes again.

Originally Posted by Vouthon

You are quite wrong.

In addition, the Old Covenant - while not salvific in any way - is not "finished" and modern Judaism is certainly not an anti-Christ religion. The Oral Torah actually has elements of genuine inspired truth and was the predecessor to Catholic Sacred Tradition. The New Testament embraces elements of the Oral Torah, so if that is your basis upon which to indict the modern rabbinical Jewish faith, then you'd better forget it.

There are two "old covenants". The first, the covenant with Abraham in which God promised that a savior would come from his seed. This savior was Christ, who had direct natural lineage to Abraham and fulfilled that promise. This covenant was fulfilled with Christ. Those who profess the true faith and are baptised (Catholics) are the heirs of this promise.

The second, the covenant between God and Moses, called "The Law" was temporary and was superseded by the New Covenant, and was revoked. The Church teaches that those who try to attain salvation by adhering to it are guilty of mortal sin.

Modern day Judaism is, as I pointed out before, a man-made religion that is anti-Christ. It rejects Christ as the Messiah. Not only that, the Talmud is satanic as it is revoltingly blasphemous to Christ and His mother. Our Blessed Lord is described as a wicked sorcerer who is burning in hell in excrement. Modern day Judaism is from Satan.

I.F.

[ImmaculataFides]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

UH-oh. Somebody's been watching that idiot Michael Voris' Vortex, where he takes a bunch of lies and distortions and "exposes" them by claiming they are true on Youtube.

Wow. And people accuse trads of having lack of charity. Michael Voris is a very good apologist. And yes, that video is very good, just like all of his videos.

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Judaism is no more a "man-made" religion than Catholicism, or did you think Jesus told us we had to have huge Cathedrals, pews with kneelers, Rosaries and six candles on the altar?

That is complete heresy. The Catholic Church was established by almighty God. Modern day Judaism was created by Jews who rejected Christ, who hopelessly tried to pull together a religion that even slightly resembled the old one.

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

The old covenant had nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah, never did, and nothing has changed about that Covenant that anyone knows.

Just, wow.

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

To claim the Covenant is now just for Catholics is tantamount to being a mid-Acts dispensationalist. Talk about heresy!

It is. You are preaching heresy.

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

How about you quote something the Church actually said about this.

AH! I see Vouthon already did. Good.

I go to the Church's traditional teaching, what the Church always has taught. Please, find me a pre-Conciliar source that espouses the heresies that you are trying to convince me of. You can't. It's a post-Conciliar phenomenon.

I.F.

[ImmaculataFides]

Originally Posted by ready

Thanks, ImmaculataFides! I appreciate your input!

No problem, I hope I helped answer your question.

I.F.

[Vouthon]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

I go to the Church's traditional teaching, what the Church always has taught. Please, find me a pre-Conciliar source that espouses the heresies that you are trying to convince me of. You can't. It's a post-Conciliar phenomenon.

I.F.

My dear brother/sister Immaculata

In my honest and humble opinion, one should be nourished spiritually by what the Magisterium says YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMMORROW not just YESTERDAY

That aside the Holy Father's teaching on the Jews is not magisterial but rather in his private capacity as a premier theologian. I do not much like the idea that you might be attributing heresy to our Holy Father.

How can you pick and choice what to obey based upon a personal understanding of pre and post conciliar teaching? Good luck with that, for fear of endagering my soul I would not risk doing such a thing.

You desire a pre-conciliar source. Ok, how about two Doctors of the Church (one currently and one going to de declared such in a few months)? Will you accept that or will only a Papal Bull or ecclesiastical document proper serve your needs? If you seek the latter then you will not find it because this teaching, although very ancient and venerable, has not yet ascended to the heights of full magisterial approval. It is an acceptable theological belief that has been held by some very authoritative people in the Church throughout the ages.


“....You also have obligations toward unbelievers, whether Jew, Greek, or Gentile. Granted, with regard to the Jews, time excuses you; for them a determined point in time has been fixed, which cannot be anticipated. The full number of the Gentiles must come in first. But what do you say about these Gentiles? ... Why did it seem good to the Fathers ... to suspend the word of faith while unbelief was obdurate? Why do we suppose the word that runs swiftly stopped short?...”

- Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090–1153), (De Consideratione III/1, 3), Doctor of the Church


"...In the light of Romans 11:25, the Church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God, ‘until the full number of the Gentiles come in’ (Rom 11:25). On the contrary, the Jews themselves are a living homily to which the Church must draw attention, since they call to mind the Lord’s suffering (cf. Ep 363)...”

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Doctor of the Church [this year]


There is a long, long line of theologians, saints and Doctors of the Catholic Church who do not believe that we should be as ardent in our attempts to convert Jews as we should Gentiles because scripture tells us that God himself will - at his own appointed time - bring all Jews into the Catholic Church.

Romans 11:25 is one of the base texts that undergirds the two-phrase conception of Christian history that the pope has been discussing. It is where St. Paul says:


Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in.


What does this mean?

According to the two-phase conception adhered to by many saints, theologians and Doctors of the Church this does not mean that the Jews do not require conversion to faith in Jesus, but that this is in the hands of God as his original chosen people and is not in the hands of the Church at the present time.

The duty of the Church at the present time,the "time of the gentiles", is to focus on her mission to evangelise every gentile nation of the world, because it is only when the Church has fulfilled this responsibility that the next phase of salvation history can truly begin, God’s conversion of the Jewish people to faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord. It does mean though that as Christians we must not focus our missionary activity on evangelising the Jewish people. If individual Jews approach Christians to hear the Gospel then we have a duty to evangelise them fully like every person and bring them to the fullness of truth however that is their choice on their own personal journey of faith. For our part we must be reactive and not proactive.

The fact that a Pope is now supporting this venerable tradition, even in a private capacity, demonstrates that it is edging closer to full magisterial approval.

I would hope if it does, as do many doctrines in Church history, move out of the realm of theological supposition and into the Magisterium, that you offer it your full and complete assent.

At the moment you are not obliged to do so, however please be respectful and do not tell us Catholics who agree with the likes of Saint Bernard, Saint Hildegard and the Holy Father that we are heretics.

[sdegutis]

Julia Mae:

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7, NIV)

Note the word "useless"