Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[wasserfall]

Originally Posted by adrift

From the Catechism

If the Cathechism proposes an understanding of the dogma that is contrary to that which the Church has always taught (and I am not saying it does, but if it does), then the Catechism is simply wrong. As Vatican I dogmatically taught:

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

[wasserfall]

Originally Posted by adrift

See the Catechism.

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by mattkubes

Noted. But it would be extremely irresponsible of us to rely on this theological possibility. It suggests that salvation is possible, not guaranteed, for someone who has had zero exposure to Christ's truth and who nonetheless follows the Natural Law perfectly and complies with the graces he receives. Graces that this hypothetical person doesn't know exist. Is it possible? With God, all things are possible. But it seems to be a remote chance from any practical point of view.

Hence the Church's mission to baptize all nations. Not just to baptize some and cross our fingers for the rest!

Absolutely agree. But clearly one does not need to be a card carrying Catholic for the possibility of Salvation.

[adrift]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

If you say that your understanding, supercedes what the Church teaches than you are making yourself pope.

[mattkubes]

Originally Posted by adrift

If you say that your understanding, supercedes what the Church teaches than you are making yourself pope.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring what the Church teaches in all the other documents that have been quoted. The Catechism is not infallible. For example, the section on capital punishment contains pure opinion and we are free to disagree with it.

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

Yet clearly the catechism states that there is a possibility for salvation for those who are not formal Cathilics. Therefore, in light of church teaching, the possibility of who is IN the church cannot be limited to only formal members.

However, as also stated, we should not rely on possibilities, and our commission is in no way lessened by acknowledging that all things are possible for God.

[wasserfall]

Originally Posted by MariaG

Yet clearly the catechism states that there is a possibility for salvation for those who are not formal Cathilics. Therefore, in light of church teaching, the possibility of who is IN the church cannot be limited to only formal members.

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

[mattkubes]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

I think St Thomas Aquinas' opinion on this matter is legitimate. He said that those who are truly inculpably ignorant of the truth will not die that way - their ignorance is not salvific, so God will either send a missionary or angel to teach them the Faith and baptize them before they die.

That would be my position on "invincible ignorance" and EENS. None of us deserves salvation, but God will make the means available to those whose names, as the Apocalypse tells us, were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

[wasserfall]

Originally Posted by mattkubes

I think St Thomas Aquinas' opinion on this matter is legitimate. He said that those who are truly inculpably ignorant of the truth will not die that way - their ignorance is not salvific, so God will either send a missionary or angel to teach them the Faith and baptize them before they die.

I don't disagree, but those person would then be members of the Church at death.

[mattkubes]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

I don't disagree, but those person would then be members of the Church at death.

Yes, that has always been the understanding.

[adrift]

Originally Posted by mattkubes

You seem to be conveniently ignoring what the Church teaches in all the other documents that have been quoted. The Catechism is not infallible. For example, the section on capital punishment contains pure opinion and we are free to disagree with it.

I agree with you on this but you can't just ignore what it says either. The documents that have been quoted also do not fall under infalliblity.

[wasserfall]

Originally Posted by adrift

I agree with you on this but you can't just ignore what it says either. The documents that have been quoted also do not fall under infalliblity.

Yes they do. That is the whole point.

[adrift]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

It is your interpretation of the teaching that is at odds not the Church's teaching. If you are saying that the Church is in error which it would be if the Catechism is wrong than the devil has prevailed.

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

The current statement in the catechism in no way contradicts the constant teaching of the church. It simply allows for the possibility that With God all things are possible and God have made someone a member of the Church outside the formal means of membership.

Now contrary to some who think that a bunch of people may be members of the church while not being members of the Catholic church, I see the statement as simply acknowledging Gods awesomeness and ability to do anything, including making someone a member if His church who is not formally catholic. But since most can acknowledge that we shouldn't count on possibilities, the Church must continue Her commission.

[adrift]

Originally Posted by wasserfall

Yes they do. That is the whole point.

Your opinion does not make it so.