Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[Sair]

This is in response to an issue arising in another thread - the claim that Christian faith is necessary for acts of selflessness such as that of Maximilian Kolbe, who willingly gave up his life to Nazi cruelty in Auschwitz so that another man could go on living.

I don't intend this thread to turn into a heated (and potentially abusive) debate over the relative merits of faith or lack of faith; so I would initially try to focus the discussion upon the kinds of motivations that lead us to sacrifice ourselves, in whatever fashion - from the merely inconvenient to the genuinely difficult or even prohibitively hard - for the benefit of others.

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner? If so, what is it, exactly, that Christianity adds to the mix to motivate selflessness? Not least among the relevant considerations are the question of whether love, in any form, can actually be a selfless experience; and is it truly selfless to act in a manner that one believes will be rewarded in an eternal afterlife? Does an act of goodness, charity, or the rendering of significant assistance to others lose its value if one gains benefit from that action, even if the benefit is simply feeling good about oneself?

[Fr Michael Grac]

I don't think one necessarily need to be a Christian to act in a selfless manner, however I do believe that those who follow the teachings of Christ are more likely to act in a truly selfless manner, not simply to act without motivation, but even at great harm to themselves. St Maximilian Kolbe is one example. He did not need to do what he did to gain eternal life, no doubt he was well on the way. Thus his act was selfless. Mothers who give up their lives to save their children act in the same way.

Does the motivation of gaining eternal life negate the good of an act? No it does not, in fact it enhances the good of the act. God wishes us to gain eternal life and so when we act in a way which helps with that we are doing God's will, which is the very definition of good.
.

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Sair

This is in response to an issue arising in another thread - the claim that Christian faith is necessary for acts of selflessness such as that of Maximilian Kolbe, who willingly gave up his life to Nazi cruelty in Auschwitz so that another man could go on living.

I don't intend this thread to turn into a heated (and potentially abusive) debate over the relative merits of faith or lack of faith; so I would initially try to focus the discussion upon the kinds of motivations that lead us to sacrifice ourselves, in whatever fashion - from the merely inconvenient to the genuinely difficult or even prohibitively hard - for the benefit of others.

We shall do our best to keep this thread Loving, for you ask a good question.

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner?

Let me preface my answer with two bible references

So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op'agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. (Acts 17:22-23

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. (1 John 4:7-8)

He who knows Love, knows God ----Even if he worships God "as unknown".

So the answer to your question is yes a person can act in a truly altruistic manner even if they are not a professed Christian.

If so, what is it, exactly, that Christianity adds to the mix to motivate selflessness?

Christianity adds a level of knowledge, understanding and clarity that may not be available to the person who chooses to act lovingly but is not sure why or how. The teachings of the Church can help a person sort through the sometimes difficult and contradictory impulses and inputs and feelings that we have to deal with in discerning what actually IS the most Loving thing to do in a given situation.

Not least among the relevant considerations are the question of whether love, in any form, can actually be a selfless experience; and is it truly selfless to act in a manner that one believes will be rewarded in an eternal afterlife? Does an act of goodness, charity, or the rendering of significant assistance to others lose its value if one gains benefit from that action, even if the benefit is simply feeling good about oneself?

This one does not have a short clear cut answer. Many great saints have written on the subject.
The best answer I can give on this is that "Love" and "expectation of reward", while not mutually exclusive, tend to be at opposite ends of the Spiritual journey. Often times one begins the journey in order to avoid punishment. This is more "fear" based, but then we are told in Scripture that "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".
As one moves along the journey, seeking to immerse oneself in Christ, to emulate Him and make Him Lord and center of our lives, this fear of punishment is replaced by a deeper and more truly formed Love. Love then drives out fear.
Spiritual writers often refer to the relationship in nuptial terms. Jesus is the Bridegroom we are the bride. A husband and wife, truly and fully in Love, need not have expectation of reward from the other. This is because each one has, as their first priority, the best interests of the other. Their actions toward the other are not in the form of "labor for wages", or out of fear of punishment, but rather they are gifts freely given out of a desire for the other's highest good. The reciprocity of such a relationship might look like each being "fair" to the other, but in truth neither thinks of "fair" but only of the good of the other.

Of course the above doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the relationship between God and man...Or how and why saintly people do things out of Love without thought to recompense....But it's the best I can do for now....

Peace
James

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by Sair

This is in response to an issue arising in another thread - the claim that Christian faith is necessary for acts of selflessness such as that of Maximilian Kolbe, who willingly gave up his life to Nazi cruelty in Auschwitz so that another man could go on living.

I don't intend this thread to turn into a heated (and potentially abusive) debate over the relative merits of faith or lack of faith; so I would initially try to focus the discussion upon the kinds of motivations that lead us to sacrifice ourselves, in whatever fashion - from the merely inconvenient to the genuinely difficult or even prohibitively hard - for the benefit of others.

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner? If so, what is it, exactly, that Christianity adds to the mix to motivate selflessness? Not least among the relevant considerations are the question of whether love, in any form, can actually be a selfless experience; and is it truly selfless to act in a manner that one believes will be rewarded in an eternal afterlife? Does an act of goodness, charity, or the rendering of significant assistance to others lose its value if one gains benefit from that action, even if the benefit is simply feeling good about oneself?

No, I don't believe one need be Christian to act in a selfless way toward others even to the point of great harm toward oneself. One doesn't necessarily think of oneself as a martyr and look forward to eternal life because of one's actions: rather, one behaves based on feelings of love and compassion. All humans have the potential to be noble and heroic, even if they are unaware of it, for no one knows exactly how they would act in an emergency situation. I don't believe one's spontaneous deeds of charity are necessarily motivated by reciprocity in any form, whether material, emotional, or spiritual reward, although they may be in certain instances. A soldier who sacrifices his own life for his comrade, a parent who sacrifices their life for their child, a firefighter who sacrifices his life to save another: these people, I believe, are acting selflessly rather than in anticipation of a reward.

[Poseidon]

I agree with what you said on my thread, that a (good) Christian really can't make the "ultimate sacrifice" of giving up their life for another, because they think that they are going to go to heaven after they die and experience eternal reward for dying a martyr. It would be a much greater sacrifice for an atheist to give up their life for another because they are literally giving up their entire existence. In fact, the only greater sacrifice I can think of is for someone to give up their life for another while honestly convinced that they are going to go to hell when they die. That would really be the ultimate sacrifice.

So really, it takes an evil person to make the ultimate sacrifice. Kind of ironic if you ask me.

[inocente]

Originally Posted by Sair

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner?

Not according to Jesus: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. - Luke 10:29-37

For his story Jesus doesn't choose a follower but instead, deliberately, a Samaritan, a member of a group generally despised by his audience, to teach that compassion is universal, people are people.

[snarflemike]

Originally Posted by Fr Michael Grac

I don't think one necessarily need to be a Christian to act in a selfless manner, however I do believe that those who follow the teachings of Christ are more likely to act in a truly selfless manner, not simply to act without motivation, but even at great harm to themselves.

I agree. Every person knows, down deep, the natural law which God has transmitted to us. This is the source of all goodness in the non-Judeo-Christian world. Christians have received a further revelation, the fullness of God's revelation, which compels us towards even greater selfless love. It is the difference between implicit and explicit.

I have no doubt that many non-Christians follow the natural law and will gain salvation due to their acting upon the message they have received. But it is a message that all through history has been easy to suppress.

To give one example, in a very recent Gallup poll comparing those who call themselves pro-choice and those who call themselves pro-life, the overall percentages were 41-50, but for those with no religion (who are thus relying only on the natural law they have received) the percentages were 61-19. And I think we can agree that bearing a child at what might be an inconvenient time and/or place is is certainly an act of selfless love.

[PRmerger]

Is there an example of an atheist who has given up his life in an act of sacrificial agape, ala Maximilian Kolbe?

Now, to be sure, there are many noble atheists, and perhaps some of them in the military have risked their lives, jumped on a grenade, for the sake of another.

But, not to demean this heroic act, we can all admit that this type of duty is qualitatively different than the profound act of love that Maximilian Kolbe did, stepping up in front of Evil, declaring to all, "I will die in the place of this man!", knowing he would endure a slow, horrific torture.

He died singing the Psalms.

Is there any atheist whose noble act has approached this?

[jagger3320]

yes. short, sweet, and to the point

[Sair]

Originally Posted by JRKH

We shall do our best to keep this thread Loving, for you ask a good question.


Let me preface my answer with two bible references

So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op'agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. (Acts 17:22-23

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. (1 John 4:7-8)

He who knows Love, knows God ----Even if he worships God "as unknown".

So the answer to your question is yes a person can act in a truly altruistic manner even if they are not a professed Christian.


Christianity adds a level of knowledge, understanding and clarity that may not be available to the person who chooses to act lovingly but is not sure why or how. The teachings of the Church can help a person sort through the sometimes difficult and contradictory impulses and inputs and feelings that we have to deal with in discerning what actually IS the most Loving thing to do in a given situation.


This one does not have a short clear cut answer. Many great saints have written on the subject.
The best answer I can give on this is that "Love" and "expectation of reward", while not mutually exclusive, tend to be at opposite ends of the Spiritual journey. Often times one begins the journey in order to avoid punishment. This is more "fear" based, but then we are told in Scripture that "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".
As one moves along the journey, seeking to immerse oneself in Christ, to emulate Him and make Him Lord and center of our lives, this fear of punishment is replaced by a deeper and more truly formed Love. Love then drives out fear.
Spiritual writers often refer to the relationship in nuptial terms. Jesus is the Bridegroom we are the bride. A husband and wife, truly and fully in Love, need not have expectation of reward from the other. This is because each one has, as their first priority, the best interests of the other. Their actions toward the other are not in the form of "labor for wages", or out of fear of punishment, but rather they are gifts freely given out of a desire for the other's highest good. The reciprocity of such a relationship might look like each being "fair" to the other, but in truth neither thinks of "fair" but only of the good of the other.

Of course the above doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the relationship between God and man...Or how and why saintly people do things out of Love without thought to recompense....But it's the best I can do for now....

Peace
James

Thank you - that was an incredibly thoughtful answer. Speaking as someone who has experienced something of the kind of love that consists in experiencing the wellbeing of another as one's own, I do appreciate the blurring of boundaries involved in considering the "reward" aspect of personal sacrifice.

Given that this question, in essence, addresses no less significant an issue than the effect of beliefs upon actions, I think it is one that doesn't admit of any simple answers, so again let me say that I respect your detailed and considered response

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by inocente

Not according to Jesus: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. - Luke 10:29-37

For his story Jesus doesn't choose a follower but instead, deliberately, a Samaritan, a member of a group generally despised by his audience, to teach that compassion is universal, people are people.

God's grace is not confined to believers...

Yet it would seem that it is less likely for a hardened heart to be receptive...

[Sair]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

No, I don't believe one need be Christian to act in a selfless way toward others even to the point of great harm toward oneself. One doesn't necessarily think of oneself as a martyr and look forward to eternal life because of one's actions: rather, one behaves based on feelings of love and compassion. All humans have the potential to be noble and heroic, even if they are unaware of it, for no one knows exactly how they would act in an emergency situation. I don't believe one's spontaneous deeds of charity are necessarily motivated by reciprocity in any form, whether material, emotional, or spiritual reward, although they may be in certain instances. A soldier who sacrifices his own life for his comrade, a parent who sacrifices their life for their child, a firefighter who sacrifices his life to save another: these people, I believe, are acting selflessly rather than in anticipation of a reward.

You raise a very important point - that no-one really knows or can necessarily predict what they might do in a crisis situation, where a decision could indeed be made regarding giving up one's life for another.

Let me stress, as I've done before, that I have no wish to denigrate or belittle the actions of someone like Kolbe - it's obvious that he was a courageous and, as far as it's possible to be, selfless, individual, and the fact that his actions seem to stand out from the generality of human responses to hardship speaks of the rarity of his particular behaviour. But it's hard not to notice the circumstances in which he found himself. The conditions subsisting in concentration camps can scarcely be imagined by those of us who have never experienced them. The effect of such conditions, in turn, is not an easy matter for us to predict.

It may be that Christianity can impart a sense of not only the value of human life, but of the necessity of sacrifice in order to emulate Christ's sacrifice. It doesn't follow, however, that Christianity is necessary to impart a similar sense of fellow feeling. Looked at from a completely rational standpoint, it may well be said that the man for whom Kolbe stepped up as a substitute actually did have more to live for than Kolbe himself - a dependent wife and children, for a start. But then, humans are not purely rational beings, and we have strong survival instincts, however brutalised these might be by circumstances. We can't necessarily be relied upon to act rationally, especially when rationality involves significant cost to ourselves.

I do have more to say on this, but I will wait to see how the thread develops.

[Sair]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

God's grace is not confined to believers...

Yet it would seem that it is less likely for a hardened heart to be receptive...

I feel strangely compelled to ask - upon what basis do you claim that it is your god's grace that compels charitable action, and not simply natural fellow-feeling and altruism? If it were indeed the case that your god's grace can be bestowed with apparent arbitrariness upon those who don't believe in him, then not only would this be a means for believers to claim that no unbeliever can behave nobly and selflessly without god, but it would - as the proverbial double-edged sword - negate the idea that Christian belief, as such, is necessary for selfless acts of love.

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Sair

Thank you - that was an incredibly thoughtful answer. Speaking as someone who has experienced something of the kind of love that consists in experiencing the well being of another as one's own, I do appreciate the blurring of boundaries involved in considering the "reward" aspect of personal sacrifice.

You are quite welcome.
Indeed, once a person has experienced such a love with another person, it becomes so much easier to understand the concept of truly selfless Love between us and God.
I am glad that you have had this experience.

Given that this question, in essence, addresses no less significant an issue than the effect of beliefs upon actions, I think it is one that doesn't admit of any simple answers, so again let me say that I respect your detailed and considered response

Thank you again.
If you are interested in exploring this idea further, there are a number of spiritual writings that might be of help. The Catholic Church has a rich tradition of "mystic" saints. The book in my signature is an absolute gem for coming to understand the faith from this aspect. It's very "readable" too. Much of my answer above is based on things I "felt" but did not understand so well until I read this book. It might be of help to you as well

Peace
James

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Sair

I feel strangely compelled to ask - upon what basis do you claim that it is your god's grace that compels charitable action, and not simply natural fellow-feeling and altruism? If it were indeed the case that your god's grace can be bestowed with apparent arbitrariness upon those who don't believe in him, then not only would this be a means for believers to claim that no unbeliever can behave nobly and selflessly without god, but it would - as the proverbial double-edged sword - negate the idea that Christian belief, as such, is necessary for selfless acts of love.

May I butt-in???

Jesus tells us that God, "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Mt 5:45)
Just as equally, God has poured out His Spirit upon the Earth. We call this the Holy Spirit - and God's Grace. So - if God's blessings are poured out equally - available to all, then the question becomes why do some respond and some do not? That is where the "hardness of heart" comes into play.

As one reads through the Gospels, one begins to note in Jesus ministry how he is less interested in the keeping of particular rituals, traditions, or rules and how much more interested He is in teaching and demonstrating that things - thoughts and actions - are either good or evil...

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. (Luke 6:45)

Note here that Jesus does not mention a particular religious belief or denomination. He speaks of what is good and what is evil.

God is Love - so St John tells us in 1 John 4:7-8. Pursue pure Love - "Agape", not "Eros" and one is worshiping the one True God even if they do not know it.
Recognize the God of Love in the person of Christ and gain even greater access to the graces (Love) of God pouring out onto the earth.

Peace
James