Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[Sair]

Originally Posted by JRKH

May I butt-in???

Jesus tells us that God, "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Mt 5:45)
Just as equally, God has poured out His Spirit upon the Earth. We call this the Holy Spirit - and God's Grace. So - if God's blessings are poured out equally - available to all, then the question becomes why do some respond and some do not? That is where the "hardness of heart" comes into play.

As one reads through the Gospels, one begins to note in Jesus ministry how he is less interested in the keeping of particular rituals, traditions, or rules and how much more interested He is in teaching and demonstrating that things - thoughts and actions - are either good or evil...

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. (Luke 6:45)

Note here that Jesus does not mention a particular religious belief or denomination. He speaks of what is good and what is evil.

God is Love - so St John tells us in 1 John 4:7-8. Pursue pure Love - "Agape", not "Eros" and one is worshiping the one True God even if they do not know it.
Recognize the God of Love in the person of Christ and gain even greater access to the graces (Love) of God pouring out onto the earth.

Peace
James

This is interesting in relation to the original question of the thread, since it seems to negate the notion that belief in Christ, that active adherence to Christian faith, is necessary for any Kolbe-like act of selfless love; however, it insists that no matter what a person believes, the bestowal of grace by the Christian god is necessary for this kind of behaviour.

How would it be possible to demonstrate that this could be the case?

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Sair

This is interesting in relation to the original question of the thread, since it seems to negate the notion that belief in Christ, that active adherence to Christian faith, is necessary for any Kolbe-like act of selfless love; however, it insists that no matter what a person believes, the bestowal of grace by the Christian god is necessary for this kind of behavior.

I do not think that it negates the need for a belief in Christ at all. What it does is recognize the fact that one can "believe in Christ" without knowing the name or ever having been exposed to the "Christian" faith.
In one of St Paul's letters he makes the statement about Jesus that "by no other name under heaven are we saved..." or words to that effect, and yet - very few Christians today even call on that "name", for Him who we commonly call on as "Jesus" would have been called "Yeshua" in his day...
Should I declare all who call on "Jesus" instead of "Yeshua" as condemned for using the wrong syllables??
Of course not. Because we are not calling on some "magic word or syllables", but on what is behind the word or syllable. We are calling upon the Love that God is, and that Christ is. If one believes in Agape and Agape is the foundational principle in their life, then they are already worshiping God...For God is Agape - God is Love.

How would it be possible to demonstrate that this could be the case?[/quote]

I have no idea...

Peace
James

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by JRKH

I do not think that it negates the need for a belief in Christ at all. What it does is recognize the fact that one can "believe in Christ" without knowing the name or ever having been exposed to the "Christian" faith.

'zactly.

And if there indeed exists this atheistic equivalent of Kolbe, the ONLY way he could have performed this selfless act of agape is because he knew Christ, without "knowing the name" formally and catechictically.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by PRmerger

'zactly.

And if there indeed exists this atheistic equivalent of Kolbe, the ONLY way he could have performed this selfless act of agape is because he knew Christ, without "knowing the name" formally and catechectically.

It is absurd for human beings to impose limits on divine activity.

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

It is absurd for human beings to impose limits on divine activity.

Indeed.

And I can foresee the question, then, posed by atheists: if we can perform great acts of love without formally knowing Christ, why then should we become a Christian?

The answer: because it's true.

Truth trumps everything.

Someone doing good deeds but not steeped in truth is as absurd as a rational man being good because he believes in Santa Claus.

NB: while it's theoretically possible that an atheist can perform a great act of sacrificial agape without formally knowing Christ, his chance of doing so is greatly diminished, given his lack of access to the sacraments.

And, the lack of evidence for this Atheistic Kolbe also speaks volumes about how difficult* it is to be an atheist and perform these great acts of sacrificial love.

*difficult, but not impossible, for there always lies the possibility that he has known Christ but not his name.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by PRmerger

Indeed.

And I can foresee the question, then, posed by atheists: if we can perform great acts of love without formally knowing Christ, why then should we become a Christian?

The answer: because it's true.

Truth trumps everything.

Someone doing good deeds but not steeped in truth is as absurd as a rational man being good because he believes in Santa Claus.

NB: while it's theoretically possible that an atheist can perform a great act of sacrificial agape without formally knowing Christ, his chance of doing so is greatly diminished, given his lack of access to the sacraments.

And, the lack of evidence for this Atheistic Kolbe also speaks volumes about how difficult* it is to be an atheist and perform these great acts of sacrificial love.

*difficult, but not impossible, for there always lies the possibility that he has known Christ but not his name.

I agree. The reason why Jesus came into the world was to enlighten us:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. 9 The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. 11 He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being enlightened is obviously not enough. It is necessary to accept not only the moral teaching of Jesus but Jesus Himself as a real person. Otherwise with all the best intentions in the world we cannot have the power to transcend our human nature like a person united to Him by supernatural love. We have to overcome the obstacles which separate us from Him - and of course from His mother, "our life, our sweetness and our hope", and all the great saints. We have to become a member of God's family to enjoy its full benefits... and even then we haven't finished. We still have to play our own part in bringing peace, joy and harmony to the world.

The alternative is to be on our own...

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by Sair

I feel strangely compelled to ask - upon what basis do you claim that it is your god's grace that compels charitable action, and not simply natural fellow-feeling and altruism? If it were indeed the case that your god's grace can be bestowed with apparent arbitrariness upon those who don't believe in him, then not only would this be a means for believers to claim that no unbeliever can behave nobly and selflessly without god, but it would - as the proverbial double-edged sword - negate the idea that Christian belief, as such, is necessary for selfless acts of love.

"apparent" is the key word!

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

Otherwise with all the best intentions in the world we cannot have the power to transcend our human nature like a person united to Him by supernatural love.

That is exactly my point. Even the most noble atheist cannot have the power to transcend his natural selfish tendencies (which are contrary to agape) except through being united to supernatural love.

Addendum: this is not to say, of course, that atheists are incapable of filial love.

Or, to put it without the double negatives: atheists are quite capable of loving, heroic acts. Just not of profound acts of agape.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I agree with what you said on my thread, that a (good) Christian really can't make the "ultimate sacrifice" of giving up their life for another, because they think that they are going to go to heaven after they die and experience eternal reward for dying a martyr. It would be a much greater sacrifice for an atheist to give up their life for another because they are literally giving up their entire existence. In fact, the only greater sacrifice I can think of is for someone to give up their life for another while honestly convinced that they are going to go to hell when they die. That would really be the ultimate sacrifice.

So really, it takes an evil person to make the ultimate sacrifice. Kind of ironic if you ask me.

Right, everyone! Let's be as evil as we can to see who can make the greatest ultimate sacrifice. Now let me see what I can do... First of all I can desecrate a church. Then rob a blind beggar. Darn it! I need more imagination and time to plan all this very carefully. If I'm put in prison my opportunities will be severely restricted...

Any suggestions?

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by PRmerger

That is exactly my point. Even the most noble atheist cannot have the power to transcend his natural selfish tendencies (which are contrary to agape) except through being united to supernatural love.

I apologise for repeating it but I think it's worth repeating - particularly for my own benefit.

[ThinkingSapien]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

Right, everyone! Let's be as evil as we can to see who can make the greatest ultimate sacrifice. Now let me see what I can do... First of all I can desecrate a church. Then rob a blind beggar. Darn it! I need more imagination and time to plan all this very carefully. If I'm put in prison my opportunities will be severely restricted...

Any suggestions?

I'm sure you are kidding , but I think I understand what Poseidon is saying. There's an occasional person that will decide to kill a group of people (usually their children) to ensure their child's position in heaven. In some cases the people that have done this are quite certain that as a punishment he/she will be sent to hell, but that doesn't matter as long as he/she is assured that his/her children won't end up there.

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien

I'm sure you are kidding , but I think I understand what Poseidon is saying. There's an occasional person that will decide to kill a group of people (usually their children) to ensure their child's position in heaven. In some cases the people that have done this are quite certain that as a punishment he/she will be sent to hell, but that doesn't matter as long as he/she is assured that his/her children won't end up there.

Indeed. It is quite frightening when a fanatic takes a certain truth (parents must do all we can to get our kids to heaven!) and isolates this truth to the exclusion of all other truths.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien

I'm sure you are kidding , but I think I understand what Poseidon is saying. There's an occasional person that will decide to kill a group of people (usually their children) to ensure their child's position in heaven. In some cases the people that have done this are quite certain that as a punishment he/she will be sent to hell, but that doesn't matter as long as he/she is assured that his/her children won't end up there.

There are sane persons, lunatics and fanatics of every type of belief or non-belief who kill their children for a variety of reasons - or for no reason at all. One wealthy man recently killed his wife and children - and himself - because he went bankrupt....

[ThinkingSapien]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

There are sane persons, lunatics and fanatics of every type of belief or non-belief who kill their children for a variety of reasons - or for no reason at all

People do kill for various reasons, but the ones that to me seem most relevant to this discussion are the ones that do so believing that by killing they have helped the one they have killed while discarding concern for what is believed to be ones eternal well being.

[fhansen]

Originally Posted by Sair

This is in response to an issue arising in another thread - the claim that Christian faith is necessary for acts of selflessness such as that of Maximilian Kolbe, who willingly gave up his life to Nazi cruelty in Auschwitz so that another man could go on living.

I don't intend this thread to turn into a heated (and potentially abusive) debate over the relative merits of faith or lack of faith; so I would initially try to focus the discussion upon the kinds of motivations that lead us to sacrifice ourselves, in whatever fashion - from the merely inconvenient to the genuinely difficult or even prohibitively hard - for the benefit of others.

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner? If so, what is it, exactly, that Christianity adds to the mix to motivate selflessness? Not least among the relevant considerations are the question of whether love, in any form, can actually be a selfless experience; and is it truly selfless to act in a manner that one believes will be rewarded in an eternal afterlife? Does an act of goodness, charity, or the rendering of significant assistance to others lose its value if one gains benefit from that action, even if the benefit is simply feeling good about oneself?

Chrsitain fatih is necessary to definitively confirm and sanction that selfless love is foundational to this universe-that's what the Atonement is all about-so selfless lovers and Good Samaritans don't have to wing it all alone-God, Himself, has been revealed to be love.