What you feel is the meaning of brutal and senseless suffering?

[andremiguel]

Small suffering I understand but brutal one like Jesus suffered...?
Like the Cross..
Torture...
Cancer....
Mass murder..
Genocide...
40 thousand children who are going to die today of malnutrition...
Why?

[steve9191]

Originally Posted by andremiguel

Small suffering I understand but brutal one like Jesus suffered...?
Like the Cross..
Torture...
Cancer....
Mass murder..
Genocide...
40 thousand children who are going to die today of malnutrition...
Why?

To begin with, all suffering is a consequence of sin--either from our own sins or from the sins of others. The Son of God became flesh so that, by becoming one with us in the flesh, he could experience the consequences of each of our sins...and Love us until the end despite those sins. By loving us despite our sins we are placed in the same situation as the adulteress in Scripture. Jesus tells those who wish to stone her that he who is without sin can cast the first stone. When all the "accusers" leave, Jesus tells her that since she has no accusers, he will not accuse her. By dying for our sins (he experienced the consequences of every sin that every one of us would commit) he took away ALL of our accusers--except ourselves if we don't avail ourselves of his grace.

When we forgive others who sin against us, we do our part to remove ourselves as an accuser of someone God loves so much that his Son died for their redemption and salvation. Furthermore, God allows suffering because from it He accomplishes good even though we are usually not able to fathom the reasons. When I look back on my life I can say that I brought the majority of my suffering on myself through sinful choices. Of that suffering that was not self-inflicted, I am usually able to see the good that was accomplished through it.

[tabycat]

Plain out~and~out evil?

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by andremiguel

Small suffering I understand but brutal one like Jesus suffered...?
Like the Cross..
Torture...
Cancer....
Mass murder..
Genocide...
40 thousand children who are going to die today of malnutrition...
Why?

I don't know that man can answer that question explicitly, but consider this food for thought.

if a baby in the womb could rationalize, he would say to himself, for example, why do I have feet? There are no sidewalks here! While the existence of feet in his current domain appears valueless, the next domain beckons their use and feet are of value.

Another example is one that is used as a Christian figure of God's relationship to mankind (although it is evident to anyone): The father-child relationship. Fathers (or mothers) discipline their children. Sometimes it can come in the form of letting a child touch a sharp weed so that the child will learn the danger of the action. The father could lovingly inflict or permit suffering for a variety of reasons including that the child misbehaved or did something detrimental to himself that the father did not want the child to repeat. The discipline is applied to the child for a) reasons the child does not understand, and b) for reasons that result in the improvement of the child's person. If we look at this example categorically, then we must admit not all infliction or permission of suffering equals evil or lack of love even if the recipient does not recognize value in the pain.

If a skeptic recognizes the love of a parent who permits his child to suffer for that child's betterment, then he must acknowledge God could similarly do the same. God's permission of suffering can rationally have an entirely loving motive behind it. (read more here)

So although we don't necessarily at this time "understand" some metaphysical explanation to suffering, we know Christ paved the way first.

In the final order, I think the answer must reside in the idea that this life, this temporal existence does not have the final say. We can only trust He who paved the way, and the Father who teaches the child unable to grasp.

[Bartolome Casas]

Many Catholic saints have written how suffering in this world is, for the soul in a state of friendship with God through Christ, just like the suffering in Purgatory. Thus, it is purifying and redemptive.

But for souls who are not in state of friendship with God through Christ, suffering in this world and in the next is senseless and pointless.

The glorious New Testament scriptures restate this in the following verse:

Romans 8:28:
"All things work together for good to those who love God."

We all have to go through suffering in this world, one way or the other.

I think it can be easily observed that suffering is much worse for those who view suffering as pointless and senseless.

So, I go with that idea.

Hope that was some use to you.

[CountrySteve]

Originally Posted by steve9191

To begin with, all suffering is a consequence of sin--either from our own sins or from the sins of others.

but i was told that suffering is a gift from God, how can this be then since God cant give us or create sin

[COPLAND 3]

Originally Posted by steve9191

To begin with, all suffering is a consequence of sin--either from our own sins or from the sins of others. The Son of God became flesh so that, by becoming one with us in the flesh, he could experience the consequences of each of our sins...and Love us until the end despite those sins. By loving us despite our sins we are placed in the same situation as the adulteress in Scripture. Jesus tells those who wish to stone her that he who is without sin can cast the first stone. When all the "accusers" leave, Jesus tells her that since she has no accusers, he will not accuse her. By dying for our sins (he experienced the consequences of every sin that every one of us would commit) he took away ALL of our accusers--except ourselves if we don't avail ourselves of his grace.

When we forgive others who sin against us, we do our part to remove ourselves as an accuser of someone God loves so much that his Son died for their redemption and salvation. Furthermore, God allows suffering because from it He accomplishes good even though we are usually not able to fathom the reasons. When I look back on my life I can say that I brought the majority of my suffering on myself through sinful choices. Of that suffering that was not self-inflicted, I am usually able to see the good that was accomplished through it.

Exactly!

[Jeanne S]

Originally Posted by steve9191

To begin with, all suffering is a consequence of sin--either from our own sins or from the sins of others. The Son of God became flesh so that, by becoming one with us in the flesh, he could experience the consequences of each of our sins...and Love us until the end despite those sins. By loving us despite our sins we are placed in the same situation as the adulteress in Scripture. Jesus tells those who wish to stone her that he who is without sin can cast the first stone. When all the "accusers" leave, Jesus tells her that since she has no accusers, he will not accuse her. By dying for our sins (he experienced the consequences of every sin that every one of us would commit) he took away ALL of our accusers--except ourselves if we don't avail ourselves of his grace.

When we forgive others who sin against us, we do our part to remove ourselves as an accuser of someone God loves so much that his Son died for their redemption and salvation. Furthermore, God allows suffering because from it He accomplishes good even though we are usually not able to fathom the reasons. When I look back on my life I can say that I brought the majority of my suffering on myself through sinful choices. Of that suffering that was not self-inflicted, I am usually able to see the good that was


accomplished through it.

Thank you!

[steve9191]

Originally Posted by CountrySteve

but i was told that suffering is a gift from God, how can this be then since God cant give us or create sin

Well, it is only a gift owing to our fallen nature. Think of the cross as a metaphorical stand-in for us--our bodies. In fact, the similarity between the wood of the cross and the stories of Elijah and Elisha and the means by which they (through the HolySpirit) resurrected dead children are very striking. By uniting our suffering with Christ's suffering on the cross, our suffering becomes redemptive--for ourselves and those we love. Thus, the gift.

[casimiri]

The word is 'transmutation'. We can transmute bad energy into good energy by our suffering. Forgiving ourselves or someone else, either way, during our time of waiting, this processing of bad energy enables the entire planet to rise to Christ consciousness, which paves the way for His return. Our willingness to do this is what makes us soldiers of the Lord. All that we must do is remember that we are not alone. These are not my words but someone else's. I hope that it rings true for others, as it did me.

[CountrySteve]

Originally Posted by steve9191

Well, it is only a gift owing to our fallen nature. Think of the cross as a metaphorical stand-in for us--our bodies. In fact, the similarity between the wood of the cross and the stories of Elijah and Elisha and the means by which they (through the HolySpirit) resurrected dead children are very striking. By uniting our suffering with Christ's suffering on the cross, our suffering becomes redemptive--for ourselves and those we love. Thus, the gift.

ooo so the gift is not the suffering itself, but the redemption attached too it

[jpjd]

Some suffering is so horrible that there is no meaning to be had other than that there is tremendous evil in the world. However, we must do all that we can to lift the suffering to God and ask for it to be joined with Christ's suffering, which was redemptive. Christ's love transcends and conquers the evil.

[steve9191]

Originally Posted by CountrySteve

ooo so the gift is not the suffering itself, but the redemption attached too it

I would say that is an accurate summation, Steve.

[andremiguel]

Thanks for all your answers. They have helped me.
But I am putting all my soul and heart into this question.
I believe in God, I know that He is doing things in our favor, He dies in a horrible cross for us, He punishes us as a Loving Father punishes a child. Ok. I believe.

But there are things that puzzle me in this stage of life.
I know that God has His own reasons but I puzzle at the suffering, at sometimes the unbearable suffering of animals.
We are animals like the animals and we suffer like them in the body.
But we have a soul created by Go individually to each one of us and we suffer in our souls.
But why do animals suffered since the dinosaurs times? Why do fish eat each other for a living?
Plants do not suffer...Neither stones...
I am not throwing questions to you.
I believe in God, I just want to know what do you think about these questions or if these questions puzzle you or not and what kind of solution do you find for them...

[Hokomai]

I believe I have seen all the explanations Christians have to offer for the 'problem of suffering' and I have never seen one that is in the least convincing. If pain is caused by sin, why did it happen to animals before there were humans? Why does it still happen to animals, and to innocent humans? If God is all-powerful, why does he allow the innocent to suffer, even if he is not himself the cause of their suffering? If God is all-powerful, and allows suffering of the innocent, how can he be all-loving? And if Jesus' death atoned for sins, why do the innocent go on suffering? None of these questions have been answered in a way which seems in the least compelling to me. And this is without looking at the series of contradictory scriptural arguments on suffering, which indicate that even in its inception, Christianity had trouble understanding this.