Hell and the perfect happiness of Heaven

Qoeleth · #1 Jun 7, '12, 9:02 pm

If hell exists, and some are condemned to it (or choose it, if you prefer), how then can the souls in Heaven enjoy perfect happiness? Could you enjoy a beautiful dinner, if you knew that even one of your sisters and brother was outside in the darkness, weeping and grind their teeth?

Indeed, we could also say, how could even God Himself enjoy perfect blessedness if some of His own a suffering in the ignorance and darkness of Hell?

mab23 · #2 Jun 7, '12, 11:08 pm

how can you enjoy any meal knowing people are suffering all over the world

dying , being murdered , raped , killed, starving , as we are eating comfortable

I don't know how I could enjoy a heaven knowing people are being in hell

but I know I would be in Gods love and that would overpower me, and I would know that the people who rejected him are dealing with the consequences

wasserfall · #3 Jun 7, '12, 11:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If hell exists, and some are condemned to it (or choose it, if you prefer), how then can the souls in Heaven enjoy perfect happiness?

Because those souls in hell will be there as a result of perfect justice. It would be unjust for them to be anywhere else (and they wouldn't wish to be in the presence of God anyway).

meltzerboy · #4 Jun 7, '12, 11:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If hell exists, and some are condemned to it (or choose it, if you prefer), how then can the souls in Heaven enjoy perfect happiness? Could you enjoy a beautiful dinner, if you knew that even one of your sisters and brother was outside in the darkness, weeping and grind their teeth?

Indeed, we could also say, how could even God Himself enjoy perfect blessedness if some of His own a suffering in the ignorance and darkness of Hell?

I suppose one answer, particularly for Christians, is that being in the presence of G-d is so wondrous and fulfilling that it precludes any other concern we may have had on Earth. We would perhaps realize that others who chose not to follow in G-d's path of love and moral behavior are being dealt with according to G-d's justice and their own free will, as well as G-d's mercy in that, being so self-focused, they would not have been comforted in heaven.

The Jewish perspective is much vaguer and the existence of an eternal hell more problematic, both philosophically and biblically, on the basis of the Hebrew Scriptures. The only suggestion of an afterlife in the Hebrew Bible is the use of the term "Sheol," which is a dark, shadowy place to which both the righteous and the wicked go after death. Later in the evolution of Judaism, influenced by kabbalistic mysticism and probably Christianity, the notion of Gehinnom (a kind of Jewish Purgatory) appeared in the Talmud, as a place of purification and punishment for a period of no more than one year, before entering the World to Come. Only the souls of the truly wicked would be destroyed, or perhaps face eternal damnation, according to Maimonides, at the final, bodily resurrection with the advent of the Messiah; but this matter is controversial. Meanwhile, it may also be the case that certain souls return to Earth after death since they have not completed essential tasks, such as Torah study, and are therefore not ready to enter heaven. According to the Zohar, the soul itself is subdivided into five ascending levels of consciousness, ranging from the nefesh, which we have in common with animals, to the ruach, neshama, chaya, and yechida.

Seira · #5 Jun 8, '12, 1:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

Meanwhile, it may also be the case that certain souls return to Earth after death since they have not completed essential tasks, such as Torah study, and are therefore not ready to enter heaven. According to the Zohar, the soul itself is subdivided into five ascending levels of consciousness, ranging from the nefesh, which we have in common with animals, to the ruach, neshama, chaya, and yechida.

Sounds kinda like eastern religions. The first part almost sounds like reincarnation.

meltzerboy · #6 Jun 8, '12, 8:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seira

Sounds kinda like eastern religions. The first part almost sounds like reincarnation.

It is reincarnation but not for the purpose of ultimately dissolving the self and returning to the godhead. Not all Orthodox Jews accept this although it is a mainstay of Hasidism, while the less Orthodox are generally not so much influenced by the Jewish mysticism of Kabbalah at all.

MatteoRicci · #7 Jun 8, '12, 9:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If hell exists, and some are condemned to it (or choose it, if you prefer), how then can the souls in Heaven enjoy perfect happiness? Could you enjoy a beautiful dinner, if you knew that even one of your sisters and brother was outside in the darkness, weeping and grind their teeth?

Indeed, we could also say, how could even God Himself enjoy perfect blessedness if some of His own a suffering in the ignorance and darkness of Hell?

Taking a different view on the matter for a second:

If i understand Orthodox Theology correctly ~ Hell and Heaven are Co-terminal with each other.

ie: Its the Same Place.

Or to put it more precisely - Heaven and Hell are different reactions to the Divine Presence.

The idea being that greatest form of "torture" if you will isn't being stuck inside of a scene from Hieronymous Bosch. Its being trapped in a room with people you hated for all eternity. And all those people are also having the time of their lives.

Iotaunum · #8 Jun 8, '12, 9:35 am

When in Heaven the soul becomes united with God and His will. There are no souls in Heaven who oppose God's will. God's justice demands that sinners be separated from His presence for all eternity and the souls who are in the presence of God are happy that God's will is being done and His justice is being exercised. It is hard to imagine just how we would feel about this when we are on earth. A soul in the presence of God sees Him as He is and will understand more clearly his judgments and why they have to be the way they are. Oftentimes we will say to ourselves; "such and such is a decent person" and yet we cannot see the state of their souls and what they have done to offend the infinite goodness that is God. Perhaps the souls in Heaven are enlightened to this and understand Gods actions better than we can ever hope to on earth. Staying with what we do know: Heaven and Hell exist and the souls which go to either will go there for all eternity. God has revealed this to us, and like the Blessed Trinity, it is a doctrine which we cannot hope to understand fully here on earth.

Qoeleth · #9 Jun 8, '12, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatteoRicci

Taking a different view on the matter for a second:

If i understand Orthodox Theology correctly ~ Hell and Heaven are Co-terminal with each other.

ie: Its the Same Place.

Or to put it more precisely - Heaven and Hell are different reactions to the Divine Presence.

The idea being that greatest form of "torture" if you will isn't being stuck inside of a scene from Hieronymous Bosch. Its being trapped in a room with people you hated for all eternity. And all those people are also having the time of their lives.

Well, it would seem difficult to have the time of your life, while knowing someone in the room is miserable.

Somehow justice doesn't seem to matter, in a state of eternity. Imagine a person who has suffered from frustration, error and ignorance all their life- has been sinned against, and therefore says "this is the way things are", and has hardened their heart, in self-protection, and become a habitual sinner, or has said "God, sent a lot of **** my way, so I don't believe He loves me, and I have no reason to love Him." Now, such a person is more to be pitied than condemned.

'Justice' is necessary here on earth- to help teach people right and wrong. But once the game is over, what's the point of the penalties anymore?

Now, if I, in my small mercy, would rather see those people in Heaven, surely God, in His infinite mercy, will do so much more than me? The sinners are His children too.

Imagine if you are in Heaven, and you know your mother, father, sister or brother is in Hell. Surely, that would not be great- unless Heaven involves loss of personal memory and identity (which may be possible).

jochoa · #10 Jun 9, '12, 5:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If hell exists, and some are condemned to it (or choose it, if you prefer), how then can the souls in Heaven enjoy perfect happiness? Could you enjoy a beautiful dinner, if you knew that even one of your sisters and brother was outside in the darkness, weeping and grind their teeth?

Indeed, we could also say, how could even God Himself enjoy perfect blessedness if some of His own a suffering in the ignorance and darkness of Hell?

Excellent questions, my friend! Please consider the following concepts:
God, Himself, can enjoy perfect blessedness for two major reasons.
1. He has done everything an individual could possibly do to lead others to become True Love.
2. He continually sends His angels to help others to become True Love.
Therefore, He can rest knowing the only factor separating anyone from Heaven is the free-willed resolution to become one with His Holy Spirit.

The souls in Heaven can rest knowing they did everything they could possibly do while on earth to lead others to Heaven, to the point where the only factor separating others from Heaven is the free-willed resolution to become one with Jesus Christ's Holy Spirit.