God doesn't force Himself on those who reject Him?

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Hey, I'm not the one that claimed we can only do good because of God. That was one of your fellow Catholics here.

How would I be cooperating with this Grace, when I do not recognize or believe in the originator of this grace?
If I am cooperating with this Grace, it is most definately against my will, for several reasons, the most important being I do not cooperate with those I do not know and understand who claim to be omnipotent! Who knows who I might be cooperating with!!! So any cooperation on my part is not free and I certainly want no part of it.

To refuse to cooperate with a benefactor when you are in difficulty and likely to fail is a symptom of pride and folly.

[atheistgirl]

Originally Posted by John Carlton

How many of these girls you work with would you say disagree with your paradigm, whether they know it or not? Will you only help a fellow Atheist, or would that perhaps defeat your purposes?

Lol - just about all of them would - they're very church based girls

No, I don't care about their background, religion, or color, it happens from where we are most are Christian, Black and poor.

Sarah x

[prodigalson2011]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Ok that's good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God's Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

I think you're taking the idea too literally. Don't think of it as God "nudging the ball" mid-game; that is to say don't think He's actively influencing your every action. The good you do comes from God in that our very sense of right and wrong was given to you by Him, along with the soul that desires to do right. Without those gifts of intellect and spirit, you wouldn't know good from evil and couldn't act towards either end.

That said, I have found in my experience that cooperating with grace can lead one to take greater moral courage and do good things one might not do alone. In the wilderness of life, we're not all Thoreaus.

[atheistgirl]

Originally Posted by Armor of Light

My opinion (and I think it is church teaching..) is:
Your good IS by the grace of God, but you don't get 'eternal credit' for it unless you do good with God in mind.

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God's grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don't have Him in mind, since I don't accept He exists

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that's God's Grace.

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my sayso, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he'll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

That does not seem right to me.

Sarah x

[prodigalson2011]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God's grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don't have Him in mind, since I don't accept He exists

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that's God's Grace.

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my sayso, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he'll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

That does not seem right to me.

Sarah x

You must understand that from the Catholic perspective, not even the most holy act of the most devout saint merits anything by itself. Our transgressions against an infinite goodness merit an infinite consequence, I.e. an infinite separation from that goodness. This is why I'm always dumbfounded by people who say Christians think they're better than everyone just because they're Christian, as well as those Christians who think they are, when one of the most outstanding points of Scripture is that all men are wicked. "There is no one that is good. Not one." "Why do you call me good? No one is good but your Father in heaven."

Think of it this way: if you, as a child, were to cuss your parents and run away from home, but subsequently sneak around their house doing nice things like yard work, etc. for them, yet never facing them and apologizing for your past offenses and asking to be welcomed back home, how can reconciliation ever take place? It is not that your good works are of no merit; they are simply not the whole, or even most important part, of the overall picture. Your apology (repentance) and openness to repairing the damaged relationship is essential; your kind acts are complementary.

[atheistgirl]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

To refuse to cooperate with a benefactor when you are in difficulty and likely to fail is a symptom of pride and folly.

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swollowed my ''pride and folly'' as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won't do that.

Along with other businesses, I fund an annual awards scheme.

Do you think, if some of the businesses were abortion based, or neoNazi supporters, or were known to fund terrorism, the recipients would be right to display ''pride and folly'' and reject the awards and refuse to attend?

Sarah x

[prodigalson2011]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swollowed my ''pride and folly'' as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won't do that.

Along with other businesses, I fund an annual awards scheme.

Do you think, if some of the businesses were abortion based, or neoNazi supporters, or were known to fund terrorism, the recipients would be right to display ''pride and folly'' and reject the awards and refuse to attend?

Sarah x

This analogy fails on the skewed definition of "beneficent." I gather from what you've said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of "spiritual", or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain. That being the case, the course if action you posit would not be beneficial to your well being. If you were not opposed to abortion, it would indeed be folly to reject their business. There is a difference between pride and principle.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swallowed my ''pride and folly'' as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won't do that.

Along with other businesses, I fund an annual awards scheme.

Do you think, if some of the businesses were abortion based, or neoNazi supporters, or were known to fund terrorism, the recipients would be right to display ''pride and folly'' and reject the awards and refuse to attend?

Your policy is admirable - and in stark contrast to the unscrupulous greed of other businesses - but the issue is co-operation with a benefactor rather than a malefactor!

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by prodigalson2011

This analogy fails on the skewed definition of "beneficent." I gather from what you've said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of "spiritual", or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain. That being the case, the course if action you posit would not be beneficial to your well being. If you were not opposed to abortion, it would indeed be folly to reject their business. There is a difference between pride and principle.

You beat me to it by two minutes! But the more the merrier...

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Ok that's good.

So your position is that the good stuff I do has nothing to do with God, or God's Grace? Is that right?

Sarah x

It is NOT my position at all. I'm not sure how you got that from my post...Perhaps because the small section you chose to quote was the only thing that made an impression???

If I may continue with the food analogy....(gonna make myself hungry...)

If you choose to drink the your local grocery store, does the cow force it on you?
Grace comes from God as milk from a cow. When you choose to partake of that grace you partake of something given by God, just as surely as when you drink milk you partake of something given by the cow.
It doesn't matter if you know where the milk comes from - it doesn't matter if you know where the grace comes from....

Caveat - this is an imperfect analogy. Let's not go down the road or "I can see cows"...blah blah blah...Analogies are, by their nature, limited and imperfect.

Peace
James

[atheistgirl]

Originally Posted by prodigalson2011

I gather from what you've said that, even as an atheist, you would agree that some sense of "spiritual", or at least moral, well being is more important than monetary gain.

Absolutely!

I like my bed, and I get kranky when I don't get enough sleep, or don't sleep well.

I wouldn't sleep so good if I was involved with making money from businesses I fundamentally disagree with!

But don't be too shocked

There's a lot of principled atheist business people out there

Sarah x

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Well in that case, that is an outrage.

Seriously an outrage.

The good I do can only be done because of God's grace, but I get no credit in heaven for it because I don't have Him in mind, since I don't accept He exists

Yes it can get very convoluted....

So even though I do not think a god of any kind exists, the Christian position is that even with that in mind, when I do good, that's God's Grace.

Yup

But I get no credit, so I am being USED by God, to do this good, yet I get no reward like a Christian would

I believe it might be more correct to say that you are using God...without giving credit...But that is where our "world-views" are different.

Hmmmm, so if God is using me without my say so, He is forcing Himself on me! Using me!

See above

So in that case, how in the world am I free to reject Him, when he'll just go right along and use me any ol how whenever he wants

Certainly you are free to reject God...God is also free to NOT reject you...
The thought comes to mind of the child (teenager?) who is constantly at odds with their parents and rejects and rebels at every turn - yet the parent, with patience and hope, refuses to reject their child and instead continues to provide good things (and maybe some tough love) to them, encouraging them in all good things.

That does not seem right to me.

Yea - but I think you will figure it out...God seems to be working with you much like he did with me...

Peace
James

[Sair]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

If we do things solely due to natural inclination we are no better than those who do evil solely due to natural inclination.

Because, goodness knows, the consequences of evil actions are really just the same as the consequences of good actions, and no-one can ever be persuaded to change their ways

It is not a "nudge" but a reasonable response to our willingness to admit we are not self-sufficient, cannot overcome temptations entirely by ourselves and need a source of assistance and inspiration.The do-your-own-thing and go-it-alone policy is doomed to failure and eventual frustration. In other words if intellectual pride becomes deeply ingrained it leads to cynicism and moral decadence.

Well, gosh - and here was I, thinking that other people might provide inspriation and assistance. Silly me.

If the entire range of human motivation and action is a matter of natural variation in biology, upbringing, education and life experiences there is certainly no scope whatsoever for individual choice or responsibility. We are no more than impotent cogs in an inscrutable and impervious machine, helpless spectators of our own choices and decisions, utterly powerless to alter the course of events or even to control our thoughts or feelings - which amounts to a living death....

You assume the ability to exercise self control and at least some form of free will (even if it's not the libertarian, contra-causal variety favoured by supernaturalists) is not a part of our biology. And just by the bye, 'inscrutable' and 'impervious' seem like great adjectives to apply to your "immaterial", "supernatural" - read, utterly undemonstrable - god, who is given credit for all things good but when it comes time to account for anything bad, is declared to be "mysterious".

[atheistgirl]

Originally Posted by JRKH

If I may continue with the food analogy....(gonna make myself hungry...)

You go for it. I've just eaten, so I can take it

If you choose to drink the your local grocery store, does the cow force it on you?

Well, that's my idle time taken up for the rest of the day pondering this
.

It doesn't matter if you know where the milk comes from - it doesn't matter if you know where the grace comes from....

Ok, but here's what I want to get at - can I do good, without this grace?

Let's not go down the road or "I can see cows"...blah blah blah..

Darn it - I was going to have some fun with that

Sarah x

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl

Completely wrong.

Some of my products can be and are used by abortion clinics.

I do not supply them and do not want my name, business, or products associated with the abortion industry.

I could increase my turnover right now, today, if I swallowed my ''pride and folly'' as you call it, and targeted every abortion clinic in the US and Europe.

I won't do that.

(Snip)

Sarah x

I praise God - and I thank you - for your courage and for your' putting principle before profit.
Honestly - though I don't know you very well, I am reminded of some of the stories in the NT - and a comment that Jesus made, more than once I think
"You are not far from the Kingdom"...

Keep drinking of His grace and doing that which is good and loving. God is good, gracious, merciful - and patient....

Peace
James