Do you think Protestants should not leave their denomination and rather change it from within? - Page 2

peace2u2 · #16 Jun 8, '12, 8:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by aicirt

I can appreciate your desire for good sermons. The best ones are on EWTN. I do wish more parish priests would be instructed on how to give good sermons. A skill that is seriously lacking with many.

However, please remember why you became a Catholic. Was it because of the Eucharist? You are receiving the BODY AND BLOOD according to Christ's teachings as stated in the Bible. You cannot possibly be closer to God on this earth than by receiving the Eucharist and you may do so daily.

It is good that our Protestant brothers and sisters are teaching people about who Jesus is by their good sermons so long as they are truthful, but I agree with this post, remember why you became Catholic. . . we have the treasure!

Also remember that Priests are human beings just as we are and like each individual, each receive different gifts and talents to build up the Church.

Perhaps you, Sandalwood, are being called by God not to leave the Catholic Church, but perhaps to lead a Bible Study or Bible Study Ministry in your current Parish Church or go to Mass at other Catholic Churches in your area because each Parish in a Community are different as some are more vibrant than others. Good luck in your spiritual journey home!

peace2u2 · #17 Jun 8, '12, 8:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich C

Change your denomination into, what? The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church? That already exists, and the only way into it is through the gate Christ established; conversion. Your clergy can adopt and teach every Catholic belief and God bless them for it, but they can't become true priests except by ordination at the hands of a successor of the Apostles.

I'll pray for your discernment, brother.

Nicely put. Conversion. I remember the first time that I heard that word many years ago by a "born again Christian", I thought in order for me to have a conversion, I had to leave my Catholic Church for the Assembly of God! I think in our Catholic Churches, we need to hear our Priests talking more about what is conversion, what conversion does and that we have many conversions that are all meant to lead us home!

Jerusha · #18 Jun 8, '12, 11:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I really am confused by the responses from Catholics saying that one should stay in ones Protestant Church.

If one faces the possibility of divorce, and, if male, the loss of one's children to one of the stranger sects, it is better to temporarily hang on with the status quo and take it slowly in hopes that the spouse will follow.

ForeverGrace · #19 Jun 8, '12, 11:27 am

Wow. I see you have identified yourself as an Anglican. Do you live in the USA? Most Anglicans in America identify themselves as Episcopals. Since the Episcopal church is in its last death rattle, it's highly unlikely it can be salvaged. They have embraced sin wholeheartedly by ordaining active homosexuals/lesbians as Bishops. What is left of the Episcopal church is years of lawsuits regarding real property instead of the 'real presence'. I have a wonderful friend who lives in Pennsylvania and he never knows from Sunday to Sunday if his church will be open for worship.

It looks as if those who have broken away from the Episcopal church do identify as Anglicans and are aligning themselves with other breakaway believers. I personally lost any hope that Anglicanism as it is known throughout the world would survive with the departure of J.I. Packer.

Realistically, it's very unlikely that the Episcopal church will survive. What do you do with the likes of John Shelby Spong who denies the virgin birth and even the resurrection of Jesus on the third day? In effect, that's the same as denying the Deity of Christ. Or the fact that Spong has declared the the Apostle Paul was gay? Once sin is embraced as acceptable conduct, I don't personally believe that the Risen Savior will bless it. But of course, Jesus may have other plans, yes?

I do admire loyalty. I will pray for you. Everyone needs a church home.

**JRKH** · #20 Jun 8, '12, 1:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverGrace

Wow. I see you have identified yourself as an Anglican. Do you live in the USA? Most Anglicans in America identify themselves as Episcopals. Since the Episcopal church is in its last death rattle, it's highly unlikely it can be salvaged. They have embraced sin wholeheartedly by ordaining active homosexuals/lesbians as Bishops. What is left of the Episcopal church is years of lawsuits regarding real property instead of the 'real presence'. I have a wonderful friend who lives in Pennsylvania and he never knows from Sunday to Sunday if his church will be open for worship.

It looks as if those who have broken away from the Episcopal church do identify as Anglicans and are aligning themselves with other breakaway believers. I personally lost any hope that Anglicanism as it is known throughout the world would survive with the departure of J.I. Packer.

Realistically, it's very unlikely that the Episcopal church will survive. What do you do with the likes of John Shelby Spong who denies the virgin birth and even the resurrection of Jesus on the third day? In effect, that's the same as denying the Deity of Christ. Or the fact that Spong has declared the the Apostle Paul was gay? Once sin is embraced as acceptable conduct, I don't personally believe that the Risen Savior will bless it. But of course, Jesus may have other plans, yes?

I do admire loyalty. I will pray for you. Everyone needs a church home.

Of course it will survive - in the form of the Anglican Ordinariate recently set up in the Catholic Church...

Peace
James

ForeverGrace · #21 Jun 8, '12, 1:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

Of course it will survive - in the form of the Anglican Ordinariate recently set up in the Catholic Church...

Peace
James

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy. But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

aicirt · #22 Jun 8, '12, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverGrace

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy. But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

What issues do they have with the Papacy? Just curious.

**JRKH** · #23 Jun 8, '12, 1:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverGrace

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy.

Well - so long as "some" survive - and it has already begun to occur, then "Anglicanism" indeed survives even though the rest disintegrate.

Quote:

But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

I would take this a bit further - and say that beliefs must not only be "consistent" but also "True" to the Gospel we received from Christ through His Church.
After all - consistent error is still error...

Peace
James

**Contarini** · #24 Jun 8, '12, 1:49 pm

Surely the answer is that one should remain in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So as long as Protestants believe that our churches are part of the OHCAC, we should remain there. When we believe they aren't, we shouldn't.

Now I know that to most folks on this forum, it will seem simple--Protestants aren't part of the OHCAC, so we should leave.

But according to Catholic teaching, our "ecclesial communities" are imperfectly connected to the OHCAH. So it's not so simple. Yes, leaving an imperfect union for a perfect one seems obvious. But the problem is that by doing so, we're cutting ourselves off from those other "imperfectly united" members of the OHCAC. So it's a Catch-22 for us.

The Vatican seems to recognize this. Pope Benedict does not call for Protestants to leave--he speaks repeatedly of corporate reunion. At the same time, clearly the Church welcomes individuals who do convert. I actually wish that the Pope would speak more clearly on this--I'd love to see a papal document laying out precisely what non-Catholics ought to do to promote unity, because at this point the messages seem confusing.

The only conclusion I can come to, personally, is that I have to find a way to overcome my imperfect union with the OHCAC (and I do believe that my separation from Rome, and my membership in a church that fails to affirm historic Christianity fully, is an imperfection in my union with the OHCAC) while not rejecting the union I have now. I'm still not quite sure how to do this.

Edwin

ForeverGrace · #25 Jun 8, '12, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

Well - so long as "some" survive - and it has already begun to occur, then "Anglicanism" indeed survives even though the rest disintegrate.

I would take this a bit further - and say that beliefs must not only be "consistent" but also "True" to the Gospel we received from Christ through His Church.
After all - consistent error is still error...

Peace
James

And I would say that you are a Catholic and what you have said, I expect you to say and believe. Even if I don't agree, I still respect your faith.

**Contarini** · #26 Jun 8, '12, 1:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverGrace

Wow. I see you have identified yourself as an Anglican. Do you live in the USA? Most Anglicans in America identify themselves as Episcopals. Since the Episcopal church is in its last death rattle

Doesn't look like it to me.

I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

Quote:

What do you do with the likes of John Shelby Spong who denies the virgin birth and even the resurrection of Jesus on the third day?

Roll our eyes at him, and pray for him, and rejoice that his views are actually pretty rare in TEC.

I've been in three parishes now, in three dioceses in widely differing parts of TEC (North Carolina, New Jersey, and Indiana). In none of them did I hear anything like Spong's views prevailing. One supply priest in New Jersey was a big Teilhard de Chardin fan, but that's still not Spong territory (to be fair, I went to church just across the diocesan boundary, though it was the closest parish--had I gone to my technical "parish church," in Spong's former diocese, I probably would have heard more Spong-like views). My first parish had an Anglo-Catholic/charismatic priest who eventually left the Episcopal Church. My current parish has a Barthian priest whose views on social justice would annoy folks on this forum but who certainly believes in creedal orthodoxy, the need to be saved from our sins by Jesus, etc. (and believes that abortion is sinful).

As for sin being declared "acceptable," that's nothing new in the Church as far as I can see. The fact that Christians once owned slaves and burned other Christians at the stake bothers me a lot more than the fact that some priests and bishops live in committed but objectively disordered sexual relationships with the blessing of my particular weird little corner of the Church.

Edwin

**JonNC** · #27 Jun 8, '12, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabjus

I'm an Anglican and know that within our denomination there is much to be improved on. (For instance, I think there is much to be learnt from Catholics regarding a higher view of Mary in response to the verse "...henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.")

However, I subscribe to the words of Billy Graham "'By all means look for the perfect church, and when you find it, join it. But remember, when you join it, it ceases to be perfect!"

One who seeks the perfect Church will have to wait a very long time (until death) to find it.

Hence the question, do you think there is value instead in staying in your own church and in the words of Mahatma Gandhi "Be the change you want to see"?

Yes, to a point. The point being to change it to what it is supposed to be.
Cases in point;
American Lutherans have tended toward the use of protestant English Bibles, which exclude the deuterocanon. This is in opposition to the practice of the European churches of the Augsburg Confession.
Many local Lutheran parishes still do not offer weekly communion, as is called for by the confessions (Apology of the Augsburg Confession XXIV)

Quote:

At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we 1] do not abolish the Mass, but religiously maintain and defend it. For among us masses are celebrated every Lord's Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved. And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things.

As an elder in my parish, I am working on these two examples regularly.

OTOH, I am stricken when I see some trying to change the Church away from what it ought to be. Case in point: the ordination of women in some Lutheran synods.

Jon

TrueLight · #28 Jun 8, '12, 2:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contarini

Surely the answer is that one should remain in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So as long as Protestants believe that our churches are part of the OHCAC, we should remain there. When we believe they aren't, we shouldn't.

Now I know that to most folks on this forum, it will seem simple--Protestants aren't part of the OHCAC, so we should leave.

But according to Catholic teaching, our "ecclesial communities" are imperfectly connected to the OHCAH. So it's not so simple. Yes, leaving an imperfect union for a perfect one seems obvious. But the problem is that by doing so, we're cutting ourselves off from those other "imperfectly united" members of the OHCAC. So it's a Catch-22 for us.

The Vatican seems to recognize this. Pope Benedict does not call for Protestants to leave--he speaks repeatedly of corporate reunion. At the same time, clearly the Church welcomes individuals who do convert. I actually wish that the Pope would speak more clearly on this--I'd love to see a papal document laying out precisely what non-Catholics ought to do to promote unity, because at this point the messages seem confusing.

I believe that a lot of things will become more clear as ecumenism is further.... clarified.

Porknpie · #29 Jun 8, '12, 2:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

So apply the principle right here in your parish...Stay and seek to make the change..
Perhaps you could start a bible study...

Peace
James

I agree. Leaving is what protestants do by definition. 33,000 have started their own churches because they don't like what the preacher said or taught. They all have their own personal interpretation of the bible. The fullness in truth is in the Catholic church even if the Priest isn't a great homilist. "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth". The Church being Catholic and Singular.

ForeverGrace · #30 Jun 8, '12, 2:41 pm

"I think this is wishful thinking on your part".

No, it's not wishful thinking. I have no desire to see any church who faithfully teaches the gospel die.

I can only report on what I see. I spent 20+ years in the military and I have Anglican/Episcopal friends everywhere. They all agree that the Episcopal side of the house will surely die.

I've been following the civil trials of Episcopals suing each other for church property. Sad. But what really got my attention some years back, was St. John the Divine allowing their Cathedral altar to be used by Elton John so he could degrade it by the nonsense that went on there. I don't believe that the clergy knew it would descend into an orgy of sex and depravity, but you have to wonder, given what we all know, why they would allow such a thing at all. Elton John has the wherewithall to rent a stadium for his birthday bash, but he chose the largest Cathedral of the American Episcopal Church.

I would much rather see TEC survive and reclaim the teachings of the scriptures instead of "Don't believe that ****? We don't either."