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  #16  
Old Jun 8, '12, 7:00 pm
Crescentinus's Avatar
Crescentinus Crescentinus is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

That, is not art. He's doing that to get attention.
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  #17  
Old Jun 8, '12, 7:12 pm
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LoyalViews LoyalViews is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizium23 View Post
As was explained above, it's not. Don't worry so much about this random guy.
Colour me embarassed

Forgive me, I never saw the clarifying post.
__________________

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  #18  
Old Jun 8, '12, 7:46 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianeno View Post
Hi,

I'm an artist myself and have to deal with hanging with many other artists who are atheist and at times snarky about me being religious. Either way that's fine, I just hang on my own or with respectable people. But i saw this article about this artist from brooklyn who made a "piece" which was wine popsicles and when you finished them the popsicle stick wa a cross with Christ on it and it was red from the wine.. I posted a picture below and the article has more info. Kind of fed up with artists using this as a way to gain exposure.. What do you guys think, am I taking it to much to heart?

web2carz.com/trends/offline/1015/artist-creates-jesus-popsicles

That's the article.

Can't wait to get to talk with other fellow Christian artists

Stay Blessed,

Brian
Edit/Delete Message


This is not art. It is blasphemy of the sacred image revered by Catholics and other Christians.

Here is another example, though I would never condone violence against an object like this. I would lodge a complaint and ask for its removal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ian-protesters

There are two types of art. Art that depicts something recognizable and that has some virtue. This is also called "representational art."

Then there is "fine art." I have dealt with fine artists and it mostly boils down to posing and lame cleverness, like a joke that's almost funny, but the punch line is lame or the goal is pointless or inexplicable. However, with all due respect, it has a distinct class structure that borrows heavily from religion

Once again, meaning no disrespect, I believe the following comparisons are valid to a greater degree than not.

Art Critics are the priests. They decide what is and what is not art. If they grant you the title "important" then your work has their blessing. They are also denominational in the sense that Abstract, Cubist and Post-Modern are denominations of art.

Art Gallery Owners are higher in importance than Art Critics. You can offer your work for showing but it must receive the blessing of the gallery owner, or better still, a known art critic.

When I was taking art classes, our class was taken to one of the finer art galleries. In that case, while the art depicted people, it accented the color of their veins in blue. It was mind-numbingly pointless. A quick glance told me I wouldn't have any one of these pieces on my wall for free. However, our art instructor showed us the proper ritual behavior in what I would compare to a primitive place of worship. She sat and spent a significant amount of time looking at the paintings.

In my basic drawing class, our instructor invited a non-representational artist in to let us view one of his latest works. It was about 14 by 20 inches tall. It was done totally in graphite on a very thick illustration board. Some of the lines were thick and some were medium and some were thin. He smiled broadly as he indicated to us a special feature. He pointed out that some of the graphite had run like paint by using a liquid called Bestine. Well, we looked at it for a while and I realized three things, (1) There was no starting point for the eye, (2) it was incomprehensible, and (3) it could probably be duplicated without much effort. Or, to put it another way, there was no evident craftsmanship involved

Then something unexpected happened. A student in the back of the class said, "Isn't that the letter K in the lower right corner? The artist was shocked. He looked, and I looked, and sure enough, there was a letter K. Dejected, he excused himself and left the class.

Another example. A name local artist was showing his latest painting in a room adjacent to me. I could see the painting and the unidentified man he was talking to. The artist explained that he had stretched some gessoed (whitened) canvas across a frame, and then he applied thick, horizontal bands of different colors from top to bottom. He then cut strips of natural canvas, which is a brown color, and applied it to the paint at regular spaces from top to bottom, the paint acting like glue. The punch line: "You see. Instead of the canvas holding the paint, the paint is holding the canvas!"

Give. Me. A. Break.

This is not about exposure, it is about a philosophy. A form of brainwashing, really. In my Art Indoctrination class (they called it Art Appreciation) we sat in movie theater style seating as our instructor put up slides on a large screen at the end of the stage he was standing on.

In one example, we were shown a solid, clear, lucite plastic, rectangular block with metal rods sticking out of it at intervals. Our instructor, with great passion in his voice, said, "This is a man's life!!" Really? I don't get it.

Or get this:

"Art should offend people because art should challenge people."
Eriq La Salle


Yep, that's the art I want. Every time I walk by it and get offended I should what? Love it?


The last straw came when our life drawing instructor took us to the local art museum. While walking around, I came across a spiral of duct tape about 10 feet across on the floor. It was totally meaningless and inexplicable. However, I was granted the answer. There was a small white card next to it. On it were these words: "Please do not remove. This is art."

Yes, I now saw the man behind the curtain and his brainwashing machine in action. Only a true Initiate into the cult of Fine Art would instantly recognize it. But the average person, like the cleaning lady who might scrape it up off the floor? No. She and the rest of us were not members of the tribe.

When I got back to class, I talked to my life drawing instructor with whom I had a mutually friendly relationship. I didn't mention the little white card, I asked him what the heck was a spiral of duct tape doing in an art museum.

He grabbed me by the lapels, and with theatrical anger in his voice, said, -- surprise -- surprise: "That's a man's life on that floor." He went on to tell me a tear-jerker of a story. I told him: "You know what? If that guy wanted people to know him and understand his work, he should have dropped a stack of little pamphlets next to his art. You know, so people would get it."

So, no, it's not art. It's a form of anger in my view. Like someone poking you with a sharp stick and knowing it will hurt to some degree.




Peace,
Ed
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  #19  
Old Jun 8, '12, 8:19 pm
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
The link didn't work for me. If anyone else is having trouble, just Google the name:

Andres Serano

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
The last straw came when our life drawing instructor took us to the local art museum. While walking around, I came across a spiral of duct tape about 10 feet across on the floor. It was totally meaningless and inexplicable. However, I was granted the answer. There was a small white card next to it. On it were these words: "Please do not remove. This is art."
The white card was necessary. Sometimes works are thrown out by the cleaning crew.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC News
A bag of rubbish that was part of a Tate Britain work of art has been accidentally thrown away by a cleaner.

The bag filled with discarded paper and cardboard was part of a work by Gustav Metzger, said to demonstrate the "finite existence" of art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC News
It is not the first time such a mistake has been made. In 2001 a cleaner at a London's Eyestorm Gallery gallery cleared away an installation by artist Damien Hirst, having mistaken it for a pile of rubbish.

The collection of beer bottles, coffee cups and overflowing ashtrays was said to represent the chaos of an artist's studio.

And in the 1980s the work of Joseph Beuys, which featured a very dirty bath, was scrubbed clean by a gallery worker in Germany.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3604278.stm

Here is the Metzger exhibit which the cleaning crew mistook for trash.

(click picture to make bigger)
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  #20  
Old Jun 8, '12, 8:21 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latingirl View Post
I am a Christian artist and I don't really know what the example you just gave me is. It doesn't look like art but instead what a little child did who was angry that they had to go to Sunday School. It's just an animalistic expression that a cat or a dog could probably do....
Actually my dog has a showing next weekend...

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  #21  
Old Jun 9, '12, 5:09 am
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CesarAugustus CesarAugustus is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Edwest2:

Great reply!

Blessings!

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  #22  
Old Jun 9, '12, 5:30 am
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Yes it is art. What else could it be? Is it saying anything that makes enough sense to be able to be expressed in a sentence? No. Does it evoke similar feelings of emotion in those who see it; or different feelings which are in some way related one to the other, and provoke useful discussion? No. Is it witty? No? Is it pleasurable for some to look at in itself? Not that I can see. Is it offensive? Well, I suspect not very, to very many, and that those claiming to be offended are either paid to say that, enjoying claiming to be offended, or actually are offended, but not bright enough to relalise that people who make this sort of art profit from such reactions. on the other hand, a witty poster on CAF once pointed out that my opposition to a cross on public land was really a proposal to replace the cross with a symbol of what I believe in: nothing! Should I be offended by Popsicle sticks with nothing on them?
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  #23  
Old Jun 9, '12, 2:11 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Yes it is art. What else could it be? Is it saying anything that makes enough sense to be able to be expressed in a sentence? No. Does it evoke similar feelings of emotion in those who see it; or different feelings which are in some way related one to the other, and provoke useful discussion? No. Is it witty? No? Is it pleasurable for some to look at in itself? Not that I can see. Is it offensive? Well, I suspect not very, to very many, and that those claiming to be offended are either paid to say that, enjoying claiming to be offended, or actually are offended, but not bright enough to relalise that people who make this sort of art profit from such reactions. on the other hand, a witty poster on CAF once pointed out that my opposition to a cross on public land was really a proposal to replace the cross with a symbol of what I believe in: nothing! Should I be offended by Popsicle sticks with nothing on them?

This is a wrong mindset that is the result of being allowed to be conditioned. I walked through a very large scale group of art "installations," some featuring recognizable objects or modified examples of representational objects.

Profit. Sorry, art gallery owners are wondering where the new collectors will come from. If you speak, as I have, to most fine artists, it is always about something in their soul. Commercial art was considered prostitution by fine artists.

Art that means nothing is nothing. I could walk into an art exhibition with a pot filled with dirt with a lightbulb sticking out of it, add a card that read: "Untitled - 185," put it somewhere, and walk out. It's not art because it is placed in a primitive place of worship of nothing or the offensive. That represents a belief system, nothing more.

Your remark that people are paid money to say anything against this sort of art is extremely offensive.




Peace,
Ed
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  #24  
Old Jun 9, '12, 2:12 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CesarAugustus View Post
Edwest2:

Great reply!

Blessings!



Thank you.


Ed
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  #25  
Old Jun 9, '12, 4:31 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Your remark that people are paid money to say anything against this sort of art is extremely offensive.
Sorry; I did not consider that an observation that people are employed (what I meant by paid money) to criticize this sort of thing would be offensive. I had in mind employees of the Catholic organizations which can be relied on to respond to this sort of thing, media critics, academics defending their own traditions etc. I was not objecting to them being paid, I was suggesting that were they not, they would not feel strongly enough to say anything.
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  #26  
Old Jun 9, '12, 5:33 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Sorry; I did not consider that an observation that people are employed (what I meant by paid money) to criticize this sort of thing would be offensive. I had in mind employees of the Catholic organizations which can be relied on to respond to this sort of thing, media critics, academics defending their own traditions etc. I was not objecting to them being paid, I was suggesting that were they not, they would not feel strongly enough to say anything.


I'm sorry to hear you think that's the case. Yes, a writer, a journalist, gets paid for what he does. But, some faithful Catholics here are not looking for any money. I can't judge the motives of anybody I don't know but I support anyone who speaks the truth, and yes, I am biased toward Catholic and Christian writers who present the truth - the documented truth. We cannot afford to be silent about offenses to our faith.



Peace,
Ed
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  #27  
Old Jun 9, '12, 5:39 pm
clark_kent clark_kent is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

The world is full of stuff like this. Gotta develop a thick skin.


Criticizing organised religion is so edgy.
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  #28  
Old Jun 9, '12, 5:46 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
I'm sorry to hear you think that's the case. Yes, a writer, a journalist, gets paid for what he does. But, some faithful Catholics here are not looking for any money. I can't judge the motives of anybody I don't know but I support anyone who speaks the truth, and yes, I am biased toward Catholic and Christian writers who present the truth - the documented truth. We cannot afford to be silent about offenses to our faith.

Peace,
Ed
Ed, when you enter into a media debate (mass or social media), you incur risk. The risks include drawing further attention to the thing you oppose. Your view of these things is a minority one, even in the US. Most people do not feel strongly enough about religion to respond to such offenses. When you respond you have to win more people to your minority point of view that you lose by your statements leading those in the majority to support the offenses. This is an uphill battle, especially where you are talking about intrinsically trivial things, like Popsicles. Much 'offensive' art comes from juxtaposing the sacred and the profane. The more sacred, and more profane, the better. The cartoons of the Prophet, the 'virgin in a condom', the Popsicles are all examples. When you enter the debate, you increase he perceived value of the work by heightening the sacredness of the object portrayed, and the sense of contrast. You in effect become a part of the art. This is intended by the artist. In my view those offended by such things would be better to adopt a tactic of ignoring both the art and the artist, and if you must say something, claim not that the artist has done what is intended: offended; say instead that the artist has misunderstood the nature of the sacred thing, and that the art work therefore fails as an artwork. Now that will hurt.
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  #29  
Old Jun 9, '12, 6:19 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark_kent View Post
The world is full of stuff like this. Gotta develop a thick skin.


Criticizing organised religion is so edgy.


"edgy" one of my favorite words in the don't say what you really mean category. How about a little truth, eh?


Edgy means it's going to offend someone, usually people with strong moral principles, like Christians.

I'm tired of media-speak.




Peace,
Ed
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  #30  
Old Jun 9, '12, 7:06 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Is this really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Ed, when you enter into a media debate (mass or social media), you incur risk. The risks include drawing further attention to the thing you oppose. Your view of these things is a minority one, even in the US. Most people do not feel strongly enough about religion to respond to such offenses. When you respond you have to win more people to your minority point of view that you lose by your statements leading those in the majority to support the offenses. This is an uphill battle, especially where you are talking about intrinsically trivial things, like Popsicles. Much 'offensive' art comes from juxtaposing the sacred and the profane. The more sacred, and more profane, the better. The cartoons of the Prophet, the 'virgin in a condom', the Popsicles are all examples. When you enter the debate, you increase he perceived value of the work by heightening the sacredness of the object portrayed, and the sense of contrast. You in effect become a part of the art. This is intended by the artist. In my view those offended by such things would be better to adopt a tactic of ignoring both the art and the artist, and if you must say something, claim not that the artist has done what is intended: offended; say instead that the artist has misunderstood the nature of the sacred thing, and that the art work therefore fails as an artwork. Now that will hurt.


That is simply your point of view. The truth is the truth. Offense is offense. Unless the artist tells us different, the goal is obvious to the average person who doesn't care what the art world believes but does care about defending what is sacred as sacred - not as a toy or plaything for somebody else. Artists are not a special class of people.

Those who hold the sacred as sacred will never be indifferent to its misuse. We cannot afford to become indifferent. Even the Pope has told us that.



Peace,
Ed
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