How does God, Angels, Saints, Demons - interact with us in the natural world?

GodHeals · #1 Jun 9, '12, 12:19 am

How does the supernatural - God, Angels, Saints, Demons - interact with us in the natural world? Maybe St. Thomas Aquinas talks about this, I think?

I know that the supernatural can put thoughts in our head, or we can have a vision of sorts, but ultimately we need to use our own freewill to choose good or evil.

If that is that case, how can we ultimately be protected by God or Mary if that would mean someone having their freewill taken away? Does that mean we are protected by listening and doing what God or Mary or an Angel or Saint may instruct us in our thoughts?

Also, Catholics believe we can pray to Saints and Angels, but should we look to hear back, risking a demon attacking us and putting thoughts in our heads?

Thanks!
Brian

DavidFilmer · #2 Jun 9, '12, 12:53 am

Purely spiritual beings (such as angels and demons) cannot have any direct interaction with the physical world at all. Thus, if they DO have such interaction, it would be a miracle. Miracles are the purview of God alone, so if this DOES take place, it is because God performed a miracle.

Thus, if angels OR demons interact with the physical world, it is due to the miraculous intervention of God.

This might seem strange at first. Why would God allow demons to interact with us? He could shut them down with nothing more than a thought.

Of course, the same applies to any evil people on earth. Humans (and demons) possess free-will. God COULD shut down both, but he does not. And, in a way, human life is itself very miraculous. Theologians say that we (both good and evil) could not draw a single breath except by the miraculous intervention of God.

There is some theological controversy regarding the role of Saints in this economy. Saints share a particular bond with humanity (the same type of bond that God shares with us in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ - a shared and common human nature). Because Saints have a greater affinity to humanity than angels or demons, some argue that Saints have more autonomy in interacting with the Church Militant (ie, us). The Church has not explicitly taught one way or another in this regard.

GodHeals · #3 Jun 9, '12, 1:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer

Purely spiritual beings (such as angels and demons) cannot have any direct interaction with the physical world at all. Thus, if they DO have such interaction, it would be a miracle. Miracles are the purview of God alone, so if this DOES take place, it is because God performed a miracle.

Thus, if angels OR demons interact with the physical world, it is due to the miraculous intervention of God.
.

Lots of interesting things you have said, thank you for posting.

In regards to the above, then how does God protect His people or some say Mary protected them (such as I had a dream of Mary and believe it)? Or even in nightmares have woken up calling on Jesus and feeling at peace and evil fleeing from me. God cannot take away freewill of humans or demons, but yes, there are limitations, but maybe those limitations are all speculation? Not to mention the hardening of heart of Pharaoh, but i heard it would only have been in line with the Pharaohs freewill, which was bent towards evil already.

Blue Horizon · #4 Jun 9, '12, 2:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

In regards to the above, then how does God protect His people ...

Godheals
I think your fundamental assumption that God protects good people is flawed.

Also, despite other opinions above, it is a given in classic mystical theology that supernatural/angelic/demonic causality is constantly and regularly at play in the physical world through the soul of every human being (usually through the faculty known as "fancy" or imagination). Only God can penetrate more deeply into the soul.

I may be wrong but it seems that the Fall weakened the soul in such a way that some of its faculties (e.g. imagination) became "un-shielded" wrt demonic influences.

Such mystical theology doesn't get much traction these days as compulsions, urges and other formerly "demonic" influences and paradoxical behaviour/neuroses are now "better" explained/sourced in brain defects, random synaptic activity,traumatic upbringing or poor personal character formation (i.e. accumulated psychological formation due to our own history of poor life choices whether small or large).

Some would say psychology hardly "better" explains such things if it cannot heal them.

I believe it is important to keep "Okcham's razor" handy. The simplest explanation is 99% of the time the correct one. We once thought that lightning were bolts hurled by the god Thor...there are simpler explanations available now.

prodigalson2011 · #5 Jun 9, '12, 6:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer

Purely spiritual beings (such as angels and demons) cannot have any direct interaction with the physical world at all. Thus, if they DO have such interaction, it would be a miracle. Miracles are the purview of God alone, so if this DOES take place, it is because God performed a miracle.

Thus, if angels OR demons interact with the physical world, it is due to the miraculous intervention of God.

This might seem strange at first. Why would God allow demons to interact with us? He could shut them down with nothing more than a thought.

Of course, the same applies to any evil people on earth. Humans (and demons) possess free-will. God COULD shut down both, but he does not. And, in a way, human life is itself very miraculous. Theologians say that we (both good and evil) could not draw a single breath except by the miraculous intervention of God.

There is some theological controversy regarding the role of Saints in this economy. Saints share a particular bond with humanity (the same type of bond that God shares with us in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ - a shared and common human nature). Because Saints have a greater affinity to humanity than angels or demons, some argue that Saints have more autonomy in interacting with the Church Militant (ie, us). The Church has not explicitly taught one way or another in this regard.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that demonic possession is a miracle performed by God?

DavidFilmer · #6 Jun 10, '12, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodigalson2011

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that demonic possession is a miracle performed by God?

The possession is an act of the demonic spirit. The ability of the spirit to act upon a human is a miracle. God enables, but he does not cause (the same could be said of any sinner - serial killer, etc).

prodigalson2011 · #7 Jun 10, '12, 8:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer

The possession is an act of the demonic spirit. The ability of the spirit to act upon a human is a miracle. God enables, but he does not cause (the same could be said of any sinner - serial killer, etc).

Ah! Gotcha!

But, of course, everything is a miracle in that sense.

GodHeals · #8 Feb 8, '13, 7:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Horizon

Godheals
I think your fundamental assumption that God protects good people is flawed.

Yes, I am learning that there often is a natural explanation for a lot of things. I am learning to be cautious not to go fully into the charismatic movement, but also not to completely rely on science or natural explanations for everything either as if demons and angels aren't battling for souls right at this moment.

I also believe that there are times that God, Mary, Angels, Saints, pray for us and "move" the heart of God. I think God is immoveable. When we pray, since He knew our prayers beforehand, He sometimes acts on those prayers to protect us. He does this in such a way that doesn't go against our freewill or others. This may be a thought or God putting it on a persons heart to talk with us in a store or a stoplight that changes quicker even to prevent us getting into an accident?

Not sure how God or Angels would interact, the supernatural, with the natural.... like move objects. I think i vaguely recall St. Thomas Aquinas wrote something on it in Summa Theologica. I need to look into it:

I found something interesting here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1110.htm

I believe in miracles and that it is important to be careful not to fall into believing there are no miracles.

Quote:

The "unknown" law of Spinoza

Spinoza taught that the term miracle should be understood with reference to the opinions of men, and that it means simply an event which we are unable to explain by other events familiar to our experience. Locke, Kant, Eichhorn, Paulus Renan hold the same view. Thus Prof. Cooper writes "The miracle of one age becomes the ordinary working of nature in the next" ("Ref. Ch. R.", July, 1900). Hence a miracle never happened in fact, and is only a name to cover our ignorance. Thus Matthew Arnold could claim that all Biblical miracles will disappear with the progress of science (Lit. and Bible) and M. Muller that "the miraculous is reduced to mere seeming" (in Rel., pref., p. 10). The advocates of this theory assume that miracles are an appeal to ignorance.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm

GodHeals · #9 Feb 8, '13, 8:11 am

CORRECTION TO ABOVE:

I am learning that there often is a natural explanation for a lot of things. I am learning to be cautious not to go fully into the charismatic movement, which our feelings can sometimes be our source of "truth" apart from TRUTH itself, but also not to completely rely on science or natural explanations. I believe in the miracles of the bible and that demons and angels are battling for souls right at this moment. I also believe demons can attack people through nightmares, and pound on walls, perhaps cause computer issues, etc. I am not sure science can prove these things, but know some of the Saints have experienced such things.

fred conty · #10 Feb 8, '13, 8:44 am

Fr. Fortea in his book has this to say.

"We need to remember that while a demon can introduce thoughts, images, or memories into our minds, he cannot control our wills."

And

"Temptation is incompatible with prayer. If one is tempted and prays, the temptation disappears. Prayer creates a barrier against temptation, since in prayer our intellects and wills are centered on God."

From his book Interview with an exorcist.

GodHeals · #11 Feb 9, '13, 1:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fred conty

Fr. Fortea in his book has this to say.

"We need to remember that while a demon can introduce thoughts, images, or memories into our minds, he cannot control our wills."

And

"Temptation is incompatible with prayer. If one is tempted and prays, the temptation disappears. Prayer creates a barrier against temptation, since in prayer our intellects and wills are centered on God."

From his book Interview with an exorcist.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING!! GOD BLESS YOU! Good to read.

MichaelHowling · #12 Feb 9, '13, 1:20 am

Yes, as a forethough...

The supernatural DOES in fact have a certain power over physical matter. Afterall, it's the spirit that animates the body!

God can offer protection by offering a mental statement to an offender (who has a free will but that can be nudged by "conscience") , can interveine in the physical world (still not taking away an offenders will) or by influenceing the "victim" mentally/physically in the same manner. Lastly, the protection may come AFTER an event ....picking up the pieces and stoping a "wound" from being irritated.

In all of this, remember this very simple theological precept that brings understanding to much of what goes on in this world. It is sin that causes bad things to happen....this is outside of God. God will PERMIT bad things to happen ONLY to bring a greater good.

God bless all!
I see some good posts here!

Michael

DavidFilmer · #13 Feb 9, '13, 1:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelHowling

God will PERMIT bad things to happen ONLY to bring a greater good.

That suggests that God will PROHIBIT bad things to happen that do not bring a greater good.

That means that God permits us to exercise our free-will ONLY when it ultimately serves God's purpose. He PROHIBITS our exercise of free-will otherwise.

Which means we really have no free will at all.

NOTE TO JO BENEDICT: I am not maligning people who act according to their own free will. Please consider this before issuing me an infraction.

Blue Horizon · #14 Feb 14, '13, 1:40 pm

[quote=DavidFilmer;10335654]

Quote:

God will PERMIT bad things to happen ONLY to bring a greater good.

That suggests that God will PROHIBIT bad things to happen that do not bring a greater good....He PROHIBITS our exercise of free-will otherwise. [\QUOTE]

DF you seem to be proposing:
(i) God may allow a lesser-evil if a greater-good should follow.
(ii) Therefore God must stop a greater-evil if a lesser-good should follow.

While (i) may suggest the appropriateness of (ii) I see no internal logic that alone necessitates that (ii) must derive from from (i). God might be mean, but not inconsistent, to not do (ii).

Also, where does one place the "window" limits on the chain of causality involved to decide which id greater? If one looks at all time until the end of the universe then yes, I would agree with you. God would "stop" a singular great evil if the sum consequences until the end of time from that situation would get worse and worse like a critical mass meltdown.
However this is silly, I have no idea what that means in real terms, I am not sure if any person has or could have that amount of evil power, and it clearly isn't what the poster is referring to. His "window" of reference is obviously more short term and related directly to the (ultimately) salvation of the individual person involved - not that of the universe.

But lets go with (ii) even if fallacious. Then you propose:
(iii) God blocks human choice when interfering as (ii) above.

Well, that is a non sequitor. One needs to define the nature of the evil that is being blocked. It is not clear that the poster is implying moral evil (ie the ability to choose) is being directly arrested by God. One is free to ignore conscience, God working a physical miracle to block our evil (or call it synchronicity if you like) does not impinge on free will but on its outside execution/success.

End the end you see the same stars as the poster.
You might join the dots and invent your own set of constellations - he another.

There is nothing existentially/objectively necessary re your view just because it seems logical.

GodHeals · #15 Feb 26, '13, 2:07 am

[quote=Blue Horizon;10359222]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer

That suggests that God will PROHIBIT bad things to happen that do not bring a greater good....He PROHIBITS our exercise of free-will otherwise. [\QUOTE]

DF you seem to be proposing:
(i) God may allow a lesser-evil if a greater-good should follow.
(ii) Therefore God must stop a greater-evil if a lesser-good should follow.

While (i) may suggest the appropriateness of (ii) I see no internal logic that alone necessitates that (ii) must derive from from (i). God might be mean, but not inconsistent, to not do (ii).

Also, where does one place the "window" limits on the chain of causality involved to decide which id greater? If one looks at all time until the end of the universe then yes, I would agree with you. God would "stop" a singular great evil if the sum consequences until the end of time from that situation would get worse and worse like a critical mass meltdown.
However this is silly, I have no idea what that means in real terms, I am not sure if any person has or could have that amount of evil power, and it clearly isn't what the poster is referring to. His "window" of reference is obviously more short term and related directly to the (ultimately) salvation of the individual person involved - not that of the universe.

But lets go with (ii) even if fallacious. Then you propose:
(iii) God blocks human choice when interfering as (ii) above.

Well, that is a non sequitor. One needs to define the nature of the evil that is being blocked. It is not clear that the poster is implying moral evil (ie the ability to choose) is being directly arrested by God. One is free to ignore conscience, God working a physical miracle to block our evil (or call it synchronicity if you like) does not impinge on free will but on its outside execution/success.

End the end you see the same stars as the poster.
You might join the dots and invent your own set of constellations - he another.

There is nothing existentially/objectively necessary re your view just because it seems logical.

Thank you all for posting. So what kind of conclusions do we draw from all of this?