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  #46  
Old Jun 11, '12, 3:18 pm
DevinSRose DevinSRose is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Hi Jon,

I understand what you are saying, but the variety in Lutheranism I referred to seems to stem from different branches of Lutheran doctrines/teachings themselves, not just accidental practices by particular Lutherans.

Let's try this; I am honestly just interested in what you think Lutheranism teaches:

Do you believe that the seven deuterocanonical books are inspired by God (i.e. God-breathed)?

God bless,
Devin
  #47  
Old Jun 11, '12, 3:57 pm
AbideWithMe AbideWithMe is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjohnson View Post
I think Jon is describing Lutheran Sola Scriptura accurately - Sola Scriptura only demands that doctrine be shown to be compatible with the Bible.

In my mind, there's quite a difference between Lutheran Sola Scriptura and what our Catholic and Evangelicals friends think Sola Scriptura is.
Ben----

Being a life-long, fairly well-read Evangelical myself, I have to say the meaning of Sola Scriptura that I've consistently heard throughout my life is the same as what I've seen JonNC and others describe here at CAF numerous times. As you stated it, "Sola Scriptura only demands that doctrine be shown to be compatible with the Bible."

----your Evangelical friend
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  #48  
Old Jun 11, '12, 3:58 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinSRose View Post
Hi Jon,

While Protestantism is a diverse set of movements, the various Protestant denominations share much in common. The book sometimes focuses on specific denominations but mostly seeks to demonstrate why Protestantism itself is unworkable, undermining the basis for the entire idea.

For example, all Protestants use a 66-book Bible. So I argue for the 73-book Catholic Bible. All Protestants reject sacramental Confession, so I address that.

There are cases that differ. For example, I enlist Martin Luther himself to defend Catholic baptismal regeneration.

God bless,
Devin
Devin with respect, if you don't see clear and bright divisions amongst Lutherans and other protastants, then my advice to you would be to spend some time with both.

The idea that all " Protestants use a 66-book Bible" is such a glaring misstatement that I have to admit that I'm stunned. Lather's bible has the full 73 books.

You also say that "All Protestants reject sacramental Confession" - I assure you that is incorrect. Two years ago, I was having trouble breaking a sinful habit and I confessed to my Pastor my sins, and he contemplated them and measured my contriteness, and he conferred Holy Abolition on me with the words "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." and we made plans to help me sin no more.

I invite your critique, but I do ay that having the facts before you will not only serve Catholics better, but will serve the truth better.
  #49  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:04 pm
Abrigham Abrigham is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinSRose View Post
Hi Abrigham and friends,

I'm the author of this book. Firstly, thanks for your interest in it and for the great comments on the book, including constructive criticism.

I just wanted to let you know that I am in the process of doing a complete revision of the book with Catholic Answers, and a new book with a substantially similar title will be published sometime later this year. The original book will not longer be sold.

The book will have similar content, using the reductio ad absurdum format, but will be better in every way. I don't say that lightly; my editor at Catholic Answers is excellent and is taking all the good aspects of the book and enhancing them, while improving or eliminating the parts that were weaker.

In any case, you can buy the original book now or wait until the new one comes out. Or buy both!

Thanks again for the feedback. God bless,
Devin
I know the thread has taken a slightly different direction, but I'm going to jump back a few posts.

Just wanted to say I finished it today. I couldn't put it down and stayed up late last night reading it and woke up and read some more! I enjoyed it very much and it has solidified my decision to join the Church and I wanted to thank you for giving that to me. I've never been more at peace with a decision in my life. I'm starting it over and reading it with my husband, who, as I said before, isn't as open to the idea. I'm hoping this will at the very least soften him up a bit.

I will definitely buy the second version when it's available. Thanks again, and may God bless you and your family.
  #50  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:07 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbideWithMe View Post
Ben----

Being a life-long, fairly well-read Evangelical myself, I have to say the meaning of Sola Scriptura that I've consistently heard throughout my life is the same as what I've seen JonNC and others describe here at CAF numerous times. As you stated it, "Sola Scriptura only demands that doctrine be shown to be compatible with the Bible."

----your Evangelical friend
That's very good to hear. I see that I'm guilty of the same over generalization as well, and thank you for reminding me!

Perhaps we need a "Top 10 Catholic (and Protestant) misconceptions about Protestants."
  #51  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:08 pm
Symphorian Symphorian is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinSRose View Post
Hi Jon,

The canon chapter focuses on Luther's important role in shaping the Protestant canon, as well as his own changes on it over time: the first edition of his landmark NT translation relegated James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation to an appendix with indications he did not think them inspired. But that opinion of his did not catch on and so eventually he dropped that, though his "canon within a canon" is still held by many Lutherans (maybe including you?).

Lutherans do not believe that the seven deuterocanonicals are inspired, even if they would allow their reading privately (as some Anglicans do). So the material point is that Catholics claim these books are inspired and Protestants do not (even if they think that their reading could be profitable or edifying).

Confession is another one Luther changed on over time, originally keeping it as a third "sacrament" but then dropping it eventually. I mention this in the book. It is true that some Protestants still do something like Confession (some Anglicans do it, perhaps some Lutherans) but it is more of a spiritual counseling session since they do not believe that the priest is authorized to forgive or retain sins in Christ's Name.

God bless,
Devin
Incorrect. May I refer you to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, authorised for use in the Church of England.

The Ordering of Priests:

Receive the Holy Ghost for the office and work of a Priest in the Church of God, now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands. Whose sins thou dost forgive, they are forgiven; and whose sins thou dost retain, they are retained...etc

Private confession is offered in an exhortation wthin the Holy Communion liturgy in the 1662 BCP.

Regarding the Deuterocanonical books, I have a 2012 Church of England Lectionary in front of me and can assure you that we do indeed read them liturgically.
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Omnipotens Deus, cui omne cor patet et cui omnes affectus animorum cogniti sunt, et quem nihil latet, purifica cogitationes cordium nostrorum, ut per inspirationem Sancti Spiritus te ex animo amenus, et debita veneratione celebramus Nomen tuum sanctum, Per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum. BCP 1560
  #52  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:13 pm
Abrigham Abrigham is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbideWithMe View Post
Ben----

Being a life-long, fairly well-read Evangelical myself, I have to say the meaning of Sola Scriptura that I've consistently heard throughout my life is the same as what I've seen JonNC and others describe here at CAF numerous times. As you stated it, "Sola Scriptura only demands that doctrine be shown to be compatible with the Bible."

----your Evangelical friend
In defense of the author's point, my current church goes by scripture ONLY. Our Pastor says he is clear where the Bible is clear and silent where the Bible is silent and that God had His own reasons for not telling us everything through the scriptures. Which is kind of ironic, because I think that God made some things VERY clear in the Bible that my pastor chooses to overlook and/or ignore. The contradiction pointed out in the passage I referenced is problematic for this type of sola Scriptura belief system. And this is only ONE of many excellent points in this book.
  #53  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:14 pm
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Chafer DTS Chafer DTS is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissyB364 View Post
I think it contradicts it in that it's an assumption. There's nothing in the Bible that says "Everything contained here is all there is and public revelation is closed" but they believe it anyway (without Scriptural evidence).
That is not the belief of Sola Scripture. Sola Scriptura claims all doctrines necessary to be believed for salvation by the christian in matters of salvation and Christian are to be found in Scripture. Please see the Westminster Confession of Faith, The London Baptist Confession of Faith and the Thrity-Nine Articles all of which state what they hold to as being Sola Scriptura. The book DISPUTATIONS ON HOLY SCRIPTURE by William Whitaker ( 1547- 1595 ) is a book which defines and defends Sola Scripture . This book is representative of the Protestant position on this . It interacts with leading Roman Catholic scholars during that time. It is a good reading regardless if one agrees or disagrees with it.
  #54  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:20 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symphorian View Post
Incorrect. May I refer you to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, authorised for use in the Church of England.
I will also concur: In Lutheran churches, Holy Absolution is considered the 3rd Sacrament. To be fair, other Lutherans say it's a Rite. I'll post part of the interaction between the pastor and the penitent after the penitent has disclosed his sins.

Penitent: I am sorry for all of this and ask for grace. I want to do better.
Pastor: God be merciful to you and strengthen your faith. Do you believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?
Penitent: Yes
Pastor: (The pastor places his hand on the head of the penitent)
In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the + Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
  #55  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:21 pm
Nicea325 Nicea325 is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chafer DTS View Post
That is not the belief of Sola Scripture. Sola Scriptura claims all doctrines necessary to be believed for salvation by the christian in matters of salvation and Christian are to be found in Scripture. Please see the Westminster Confession of Faith, The London Baptist Confession of Faith and the Thrity-Nine Articles all of which state what they hold to as being Sola Scriptura. The book DISPUTATIONS ON HOLY SCRIPTURE by William Whitaker ( 1547- 1595 ) is a book which defines and defends Sola Scripture . This book is representative of the Protestant position on this . It interacts with leading Roman Catholic scholars during that time. It is a good reading regardless if one agrees or disagrees with it.

So in other words, SS really has nothing to do with being the "sole" rule of faith or the "final" authority in matters of faith and morals?
  #56  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:32 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325 View Post
So in other words, SS really has nothing to do with being the "sole" rule of faith or the "final" authority in matters of faith and morals?
Lutherans admit other authorities, but they are subjugated to correction from the word of God.
  #57  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:36 pm
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Chafer DTS Chafer DTS is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325 View Post
So in other words, SS really has nothing to do with being the "sole" rule of faith or the "final" authority in matters of faith and morals?
It teaches that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. It does not exclude secondary things such as councils,or church authority, tradition or things like that. But it does hold those things are to be subject to Scripture. It holds those other things are fallible while Scripture is infallible. If Scripture says one thing and someone says something else we are to take what Scripture says on the matter. Scripture is the supreme authority. All too often Sola Scripture gets grossly misrepresented. Hope this helps you out.
  #58  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:36 pm
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Chafer DTS Chafer DTS is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjohnson View Post
Lutherans admit other authorities, but they are subjugated to correction from the word of God.
Exactly the point I am making.
  #59  
Old Jun 11, '12, 5:06 pm
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

Quote:
=DevinSRose;9397105]Hi Jon,

I understand what you are saying, but the variety in Lutheranism I referred to seems to stem from different branches of Lutheran doctrines/teachings themselves, not just accidental practices by particular Lutherans.
Hi Devin,
I'm not asking you to write about particular Lutherans, but about what historic Lutheranism and the confessions teach. If you then want to discuss some of the differing practices, that's fine. To borrow from Churchill, sometimes Lutherans are divided by a common confession.

Quote:
Let's try this; I am honestly just interested in what you think Lutheranism teaches:

Do you believe that the seven deuterocanonical books are inspired by God (i.e. God-breathed)?
The confessions do not list a canon of scripture, so the practice of Lutheranism is to view the books historically, not unlike Eusebius - undisputed, disputed, and rejected. Lutherans would place the D-C's clearly in the disputed category, and as a practice would not use them for dcotrine, but certainly for reading and study, as they have a scriptural place in the history of the Church, and also liturgically. An excellent account of Lutheran use of the canon of scripture is here:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/...-lutheran-view

I personally oppose the common American Lutheran practice of having only the 66 book English protestant Bibles, and I am thankful that a Lutheran study Bible of the D-C's is about to be published.

Jon
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“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
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  #60  
Old Jun 11, '12, 5:33 pm
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PeterJohn PeterJohn is offline
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Default Re: If Protestantism Is True

I can see from you guys posts that there is varying opinions on Protestant rites, practices, liturgical material, sacrements as well as interpritation of what sola Scriptura means to your church(s) personally. There are over 30,000 denominations of Protestants around the world and to ask and or debate with Devin about which of these he includes in his book, where he makes arguments against sola Scriptura and generalized Protestantism, is silly. How many different volumes of his publication in question would you like him to produce in order to name each of your churches and their belief systems one by one? 1000? 10,000? I totally understand your points of view in wanting your particular church and/or the teachings your particular church abides by, to be portrayed in its exact light, but we can't reasonably expect Mr. Rose to write About each and every one. There are simply to many differences. The views expressed in Devins are his own, and you can disagree if you like. I personally saw no problem with his book. And to those of you who are arguing about it, have you even read it??
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