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  #1  
Old Jun 11, '12, 4:49 pm
mgoforth mgoforth is offline
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Default What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

I don't mean cosmologists on these forums...I don't know if there are any.

I was watching a TV show the other night - I think it was "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman", because I'm a huge science nerd. The topic was: What's at the edge of the Universe? Some of the answers given by the scientists they interviewed were pretty mind-blowing...we could all be living inside a "hologram" universe where reality only exists in two dimensions at the edge of expanding spacetime, or we could be living in one of an infinite number of universes, all connected in a "multiverse". Apparently theoretical physics has moved beyond the Big Bang as the great unknown, and now there are branches of cosmology that speculate on what came before.

Don't ask me how the theories work, math is definitely not my subject. But what I was wondering as I watched this show was, "What's the point of studying all this?" I mean, it's very cool, and of course there's the innate human desire to learn as much as we can about the world we live in...but what do these guys really expect to find when it's all said and done?

Suppose they can eventually discover the "theory" that explains the way everything works (which I don't think is possible). But just suppose they can. What does that really prove? Many in the scientific community would say that it somehow proves that God doesn't exist. Aren't scientists out there smart enough to realize that you can't EVER find out what the ultimate beginning of existence is through scientific measurements or theory? I think many non-scientists were happy enough to admit that the Big Band happened, but that it must have been God who made it go "Bang".

It seems to make no difference whether the limits of our understanding is the Big Bang or the multiverse, or something else...doesn't an honest, logical person have to admit eventually that there's no way to see beyond THE beginning? We can't measure God, and we can't measure anything that came before time began...so what's the ultimate payoff for cosmology?

Maybe I'm just rambling to myself...
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  #2  
Old Jun 11, '12, 5:30 pm
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empther empther is online now
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

I didn't see the Morgan Freeman program but there was a series on the history channel that mentioned the hologram theory.
Another episode talked about the mathmatical theory of the miltiverse. Some scientists reject the miltiverse theory because there is not and never can be any way to prove it.

What all these speculative theories fail to do is explain how it could all begin.
There could not be an infinite past, and anything in the natural realm must exist in time. Therefore, the natural realm could not have existed through an infinite past. It had to start from nothing.

Therefore, there had to be an eternal God to start it all.
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  #3  
Old Jun 11, '12, 5:54 pm
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoforth View Post
I don't mean cosmologists on these forums...I don't know if there are any.

I was watching a TV show the other night - I think it was "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman", because I'm a huge science nerd. The topic was: What's at the edge of the Universe? Some of the answers given by the scientists they interviewed were pretty mind-blowing...we could all be living inside a "hologram" universe where reality only exists in two dimensions at the edge of expanding spacetime, or we could be living in one of an infinite number of universes, all connected in a "multiverse". Apparently theoretical physics has moved beyond the Big Bang as the great unknown, and now there are branches of cosmology that speculate on what came before.

Don't ask me how the theories work, math is definitely not my subject. But what I was wondering as I watched this show was, "What's the point of studying all this?" I mean, it's very cool, and of course there's the innate human desire to learn as much as we can about the world we live in...but what do these guys really expect to find when it's all said and done?

Suppose they can eventually discover the "theory" that explains the way everything works (which I don't think is possible). But just suppose they can. What does that really prove? Many in the scientific community would say that it somehow proves that God doesn't exist. Aren't scientists out there smart enough to realize that you can't EVER find out what the ultimate beginning of existence is through scientific measurements or theory? I think many non-scientists were happy enough to admit that the Big Band happened, but that it must have been God who made it go "Bang".

It seems to make no difference whether the limits of our understanding is the Big Bang or the multiverse, or something else...doesn't an honest, logical person have to admit eventually that there's no way to see beyond THE beginning? We can't measure God, and we can't measure anything that came before time began...so what's the ultimate payoff for cosmology?
The devil's playground.

God bless,
jd
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  #4  
Old Jun 11, '12, 6:17 pm
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Acerunner Acerunner is offline
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Wink Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

My personal favorite are Steven Hawkings immutable laws of nature that replace the need for good. His laws have always been, always are, and always will be and exist outside of time...sound familiar?
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  #5  
Old Jun 11, '12, 6:28 pm
Gorillaman Gorillaman is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Dudes...I literally just saw a commercial for this and of course I was like "oh dang...this one is gonna stump those guys on the old catholic.com"...was GONNA start a thread on this...and yet here we are...Catholics, universal facing these questions without fear. I think they're following the light within them...they want to find answers, they could just look to God, but nope...as long as they keep searching I think God smiles, it's when they start to say "aha! I've got it! There is no god! Follow ME instead!"...I think that's when God shakes his head and is like....no. Haha.

But seriously, it's for people like you guys who make me happy to be a catholic.

Keep it up!
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  #6  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:09 pm
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tabycat tabycat is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acerunner View Post
My personal favorite are Steven Hawkings immutable laws of nature that replace the need for good. His laws have always been, always are, and always will be and exist outside of time...sound familiar?


Sounds alot like GOD!!!
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  #7  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:10 pm
kesa82 kesa82 is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoforth View Post
What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?.
Ugh, I do not agree with, or except, the context or format of the question.

It's exactly like "talking" to a shrink or a police officer. ( Yes, it is. )

I am , prima facie, placed in the position of defendant. ( Hey, wait a minute. Who came to that determination ? )

THEY get to ask ME this , that, or the other thing, or anything at all. For any reason at all, or no reason at all.

But the same privilege does NOT apply in REVERSE. I do NOT get to ask them the same things, or anything at all.

And this strikes me as absolutely incredible.
Anywhere I look, in any part of the globe, any culture, any era, I see some kind of theism , good, bad, or indifferent, but some kind of theism.

So some guy comes along and asserts that he doesn't believe in a God, Gods, spirits, an intelligent positive motive behind and beyond things ?

And I'm just supposed to buy that from the get-go ?

Who made that rule ?

I must , prima facie, except , " ...don't believe .. " ...............Why ?
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  #8  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:35 pm
Gorillaman Gorillaman is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kesa82 View Post
Ugh, I do not agree with, or except, the context or format of the question.

It's exactly like "talking" to a shrink or a police officer. ( Yes, it is. )

I am , prima facie, placed in the position of defendant. ( Hey, wait a minute. Who came to that determination ? )

THEY get to ask ME this , that, or the other thing, or anything at all. For any reason at all, or no reason at all.

But the same privilege does NOT apply in REVERSE. I do NOT get to ask them the same things, or anything at all.

And this strikes me as absolutely incredible.
Anywhere I look, in any part of the globe, any culture, any era, I see some kind of theism , good, bad, or indifferent, but some kind of theism.

So some guy comes along and asserts that he doesn't believe in a God, Gods, spirits, an intelligent positive motive behind and beyond things ?

And I'm just supposed to buy that from the get-go ?

Who made that rule ?

I must , prima facie, except , " ...don't believe .. " ...............Why ?
Exactly. What's so strange is that they think were afraid of the question "why?"...but were not. We love that question...or at least I do...
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  #9  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:41 pm
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prodigalson2011 prodigalson2011 is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

This is an idea that seems to have been short lived: We May Not Live in a Hologram After All (from Discovery, a very popular secular science publication).

I had my doubts about it from the get go. Physics in the past half century or so has become so convoluted and impractical, it's ridiculous. Like another poster said, even if any of these theories were eventually proven, so what? Though in the case of the holographic universe, if anything I would say that it would be even more suggestive of a creator. The multiverse "movement", on the other hand, is already known to be, by the admission of many of its most prominent proponents, a desperate search for an alternative to God to explain the inexplicable fine-tuning of our universe.

As for Stephen Hawking, I think he's losing his intellectual edge in his old age. As Fr. Robert Spitzer rightly noted in his critique of Hawking's "Grand Design," he begins the book by claiming that science has rendered philosophy obsolete, then proceeds to fill his book with completely unscientific, philosophical assertions. It is comical that so many atheists fail to recognize or acknowledge that any interpretation that extends beyond numbers and physical data is beyond the realm of science. "God is not necessary," is not a scientific proposition; it is metaphysical and dependent upon philosophical syllogisms. Unfortunately for many of these scientists, their philosophical teeth aren't very sharp.
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  #10  
Old Jun 11, '12, 9:08 pm
Seira Seira is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoforth View Post
It seems to make no difference whether the limits of our understanding is the Big Bang or the multiverse, or something else...doesn't an honest, logical person have to admit eventually that there's no way to see beyond THE beginning? We can't measure God, and we can't measure anything that came before time began...so what's the ultimate payoff for cosmology?
Government funding?
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  #11  
Old Jun 11, '12, 9:10 pm
TheTrueCentrist TheTrueCentrist is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

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Originally Posted by JDaniel View Post
The devil's playground.

God bless,
jd
Indeed:
“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God” --Martin Luther
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  #12  
Old Jun 11, '12, 9:22 pm
SanctusPeccator SanctusPeccator is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoforth View Post
I don't mean cosmologists on these forums...I don't know if there are any.

I was watching a TV show the other night - I think it was "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman", because I'm a huge science nerd. The topic was: What's at the edge of the Universe? Some of the answers given by the scientists they interviewed were pretty mind-blowing...we could all be living inside a "hologram" universe where reality only exists in two dimensions at the edge of expanding spacetime, or we could be living in one of an infinite number of universes, all connected in a "multiverse". Apparently theoretical physics has moved beyond the Big Bang as the great unknown, and now there are branches of cosmology that speculate on what came before.

Don't ask me how the theories work, math is definitely not my subject. But what I was wondering as I watched this show was, "What's the point of studying all this?" I mean, it's very cool, and of course there's the innate human desire to learn as much as we can about the world we live in...but what do these guys really expect to find when it's all said and done?

Suppose they can eventually discover the "theory" that explains the way everything works (which I don't think is possible). But just suppose they can. What does that really prove? Many in the scientific community would say that it somehow proves that God doesn't exist. Aren't scientists out there smart enough to realize that you can't EVER find out what the ultimate beginning of existence is through scientific measurements or theory? I think many non-scientists were happy enough to admit that the Big Band happened, but that it must have been God who made it go "Bang".

It seems to make no difference whether the limits of our understanding is the Big Bang or the multiverse, or something else...doesn't an honest, logical person have to admit eventually that there's no way to see beyond THE beginning? We can't measure God, and we can't measure anything that came before time began...so what's the ultimate payoff for cosmology?

Maybe I'm just rambling to myself...
The Catholic Church has never said the creatio ex nihilo event is necessarily synonymous with the Big Bang:
“If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God out of nothing; or shall have said that God created not by a volition free of all necessity, but as necessarily as He necessarily loves Himself; or, shall have denied that the world was created to the glory of God: let him be anathema” (First Vatican Ecumenical Council, Session III, Dogmatic Constitution [of 24 April 1870] on the Catholic Faith Dei Filius, Canon 5).
Although cosmologists would likely find the aforecited distinction irrelevant, this still allows for theoretical speculation (subject to scientific validation) on the existing models of brane cosmology that incorporate the latest insights from superstring/M-theory. Nevertheless, those cosmologists who formulate multiverse theories often fail to acknowledge they are: (1) non-scientific since they lack any empirical verification; and (2) fail to resolve the self-contradictory conundrum of the infinite regress of physical causation.
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  #13  
Old Jun 12, '12, 5:59 am
mgoforth mgoforth is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acerunner View Post
My personal favorite are Steven Hawkings immutable laws of nature that replace the need for good. His laws have always been, always are, and always will be and exist outside of time...sound familiar?
I saw an episode of "Curiosity" with Steven Hawking once - the theme was: Is there a God? I thought, "No way they're actually going to debate this on TV." Imagine my surprise when at the end of the hour, Dr. Hawking proclaims that no, there just isn't enough proof for God, therefore he doesn't exist... And that was the end of the show. Case closed, the professor has spoken. I just sat there stunned for a few minutes...
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  #14  
Old Jun 12, '12, 6:05 am
mgoforth mgoforth is offline
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Default Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Seira View Post
Government funding?
Nice. I was thinking something similar after I posed that question...
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  #15  
Old Jun 12, '12, 7:13 am
debgab debgab is offline
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Question Re: What's up with cosmologists who don't believe in God?

This is a timely subject for me after catching a show on the discovery channel last week with Stephen Hawking. The show was called "Into the Universe". Some of the subject matter on these posts deals with a theory of a holographic reality but on this particular show they talked about us being just "brains" in a jar being manipulated by some outside force alien or other. The brain is just being stimulated in such a way as to cause all our senses to produce an illusion that we are alive in a body but in reality we're just brains contained inside of a jar.
This idea that was on the show has been troubling me and I'm trying to figure out why this theory would be faulty. The only conclusion I can come to about this theory is: why? for what purpose would there be to cause millions of brains to be stimulated to have an illusion of life? What would be the gain for whatever is controlling such an endeavor.
If any of you could contribute your own thoughts about this and if you saw the show what did you think of this one particular "theory"?

Thanks,
Debbie
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