Once saved, always saved?

[E Thrower II]

What is the difference between eternal salvation and timely salvation? Is there such a thing? If so, how are they related? Is it possible that once I'm born again and receive the Holy Ghost I can somehow lose it and go to Hell? I was thinking no. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I had in mind...

If God knew me before I was ever born through His foreknowledge according to Eph ch. 1 and 2 and chose me before the foundation of the world, what can I do down here that he didn't already know I was going to do before I actually did it? And if there was something I could do to lose my eternal home and I did it, why would he choose me to begin with knowing I would fall away? If Jesus could die for us (atonement, e.g. Ex ch.12) and we could still lose our eternal home; why bother creating a new covenant as there would be no difference between the old and the new?

How could Jesus of said it is finished? If I could fall away then it wasn't finished, something else had to be done. If something else had to be done Jesus would have been lying.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Why?

He would have to come back and die all over again.

Why?

Because the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3)

But God is merciful.
... I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Heb 10:18-20)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (contained in the law) that was against us, being contrary to us because of the sin in us, Christ took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8)

Those judged by God = guilty
Those judged by God through the blood of Christ = innocent

But wouldn't timely salvation (the knowledge of our eternal salvation and the commitment that should follow), be another story. Once I'm born again I can choose to follow Christ, or I can choose to be disobedient. If I'm obedient, I'm blessed. If I'm disobedient, I'm punished. But my eternal home according to election/predestination would have been completed on the cross right?... In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

What say you?

[thistle]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

What is the difference between eternal salvation and timely salvation? Is there such a thing? If so, how are they related? Is it possible that once I'm born again and receive the Holy Ghost I can somehow lose it and go to Hell? I was thinking no. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I had in mind...

If God knew me before I was ever born through His foreknowledge according to Eph ch. 1 and 2 and chose me before the foundation of the world, what can I do down here that he didn't already know I was going to do before I actually did it? And if there was something I could do to lose my eternal home and I did it, why would he choose me to begin with knowing I would fall away? If Jesus could die for us (atonement, e.g. Ex ch.12) and we could still lose our eternal home; why bother creating a new covenant as there would be no difference between the old and the new?

How could Jesus of said it is finished? If I could fall away then it wasn't finished, something else had to be done. If something else had to be done Jesus would have been lying.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Why?

He would have to come back and die all over again.

Why?

Because the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3)

But God is merciful.
... I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Heb 10:18-20)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (contained in the law) that was against us, being contrary to us because of the sin in us, Christ took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8)

Those judged by God = guilty
Those judged by God through the blood of Christ = innocent

But wouldn't timely salvation (the knowledge of our eternal salvation and the commitment that should follow), be another story. Once I'm born again I can choose to follow Christ, or I can choose to be disobedient. If I'm obedient, I'm blessed. If I'm disobedient, I'm punished. But my eternal home according to election/predestination would have been completed on the cross right?... In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

What say you?

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...-saved-if-only

[Porknpie]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

What is the difference between eternal salvation and timely salvation? Is there such a thing? If so, how are they related? Is it possible that once I'm born again and receive the Holy Ghost I can somehow lose it and go to Hell? I was thinking no. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I had in mind...

If God knew me before I was ever born through His foreknowledge according to Eph ch. 1 and 2 and chose me before the foundation of the world, what can I do down here that he didn't already know I was going to do before I actually did it? And if there was something I could do to lose my eternal home and I did it, why would he choose me to begin with knowing I would fall away? If Jesus could die for us (atonement, e.g. Ex ch.12) and we could still lose our eternal home; why bother creating a new covenant as there would be no difference between the old and the new?

How could Jesus of said it is finished? If I could fall away then it wasn't finished, something else had to be done. If something else had to be done Jesus would have been lying.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Why?

He would have to come back and die all over again.

Why?

Because the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3)

But God is merciful.
... I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Heb 10:18-20)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (contained in the law) that was against us, being contrary to us because of the sin in us, Christ took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8)

Those judged by God = guilty
Those judged by God through the blood of Christ = innocent

But wouldn't timely salvation (the knowledge of our eternal salvation and the commitment that should follow), be another story. Once I'm born again I can choose to follow Christ, or I can choose to be disobedient. If I'm obedient, I'm blessed. If I'm disobedient, I'm punished. But my eternal home according to election/predestination would have been completed on the cross right?... In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

What say you?

So says me:

What are Jesus' own words on what one must do to be saved?

What say you?

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

What is the difference between eternal salvation and timely salvation? Is there such a thing? If so, how are they related? Is it possible that once I'm born again and receive the Holy Ghost I can somehow lose it and go to Hell? I was thinking no. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I had in mind...

If God knew me before I was ever born through His foreknowledge according to Eph ch. 1 and 2 and chose me before the foundation of the world, what can I do down here that he didn't already know I was going to do before I actually did it? And if there was something I could do to lose my eternal home and I did it, why would he choose me to begin with knowing I would fall away? If Jesus could die for us (atonement, e.g. Ex ch.12) and we could still lose our eternal home; why bother creating a new covenant as there would be no difference between the old and the new?

How could Jesus of said it is finished? If I could fall away then it wasn't finished, something else had to be done. If something else had to be done Jesus would have been lying.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Why?

He would have to come back and die all over again.

Why?

Because the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3)

But God is merciful.
... I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Heb 10:18-20)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (contained in the law) that was against us, being contrary to us because of the sin in us, Christ took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8)

Those judged by God = guilty
Those judged by God through the blood of Christ = innocent

But wouldn't timely salvation (the knowledge of our eternal salvation and the commitment that should follow), be another story. Once I'm born again I can choose to follow Christ, or I can choose to be disobedient. If I'm obedient, I'm blessed. If I'm disobedient, I'm punished. But my eternal home according to election/predestination would have been completed on the cross right?... In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

What say you?

Think about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose (or choose to give up) our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

And what of Romans 8:29-30, which says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

How about Jude 24, which says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

What do you make of Colosians 3:1-4, which promises that if we have been save, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

How do you explain 1 Peter 1:23, which tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

[COPLAND 3]

God gave us a free will, and His foreknowledge enables Him to know how we are going to use our free will, but He does not force us to follow Him. His choosing us is not because we chose to follow Him, but it is Him choosing us based upon Him knowing ahead whether we will endure until the end. Many people have converted, but that does not mean they are chosen, because God knows who are going to convert and then reject their faith. Since God knows that later on they will reject the faith after conversion, then He did not choose them in the first place because He knew how they would use their free will. That does not mean that He did not allow them, but He allows them to chose their own fate. Even though someone has had their sins forgiven and are in the state of grace and have their names in the book of life, as Scripture tells us they can be blotted out of the book of life. Being in the book of life can be temporary for some, and even since they were in the book of life does not mean they are chosen. Only those who God knows will die in the state of grace are the ones who are of the elect. We do not know if we are of the elect until we die.

It appears that you may be getting mixed up between God's plan for salvation in terms of it as a whole for humanity and for the salvation of individuals.

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

God gave us a free will, and His foreknowledge enables Him to know how we are going to use our free will, but He does not force us to follow Him. His choosing us is not because we chose to follow Him, but it is Him choosing us based upon Him knowing ahead whether we will endure until the end. Many people have converted, but that does not mean they are chosen, because God knows who are going to convert and then reject their faith. Since God knows that later on they will reject the faith after conversion, then He did not choose them in the first place because He knew how they would use their free will. That does not mean that He did not allow them, but He allows them to chose their own fate. Even though someone has had their sins forgiven and are in the state of grace and have their names in the book of life, as Scripture tells us they can be blotted out of the book of life. Being in the book of life can be temporary for some, and even since they were in the book of life does not mean they are chosen. Only those who God knows will die in the state of grace are the ones who are of the elect. We do not know if we are of the elect until we die.

It appears that you may be getting mixed up between God's plan for salvation in terms of it as a whole for humanity and for the salvation of individuals.

Which "Book of Life"? There's more than one, you know. And which verse are you referring to?

[COPLAND 3]

Chuck,

Not any sin is enough to cause us to fall away, there are mortal sins and sins that are not mortal. Not all sin is equal and gets punished equally. Scripture makes that very clear.

As for God's salvation being eternal, absolutely! His promise is guaranteed. But we have a responsibility. If i converted when i was 20 years old, and if i decided to reject the faith a couple years later and become an atheist, am i still going to heaven? That would be totally absurd!

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

Chuck,

Not any sin is enough to cause us to fall away, there are mortal sins and sins that are not mortal. Not all sin is equal and gets punished equally. Scripture makes that very clear.

As for God's salvation being eternal, absolutely! His promise is guaranteed. But we have a responsibility. If i converted when i was 20 years old, and if i decided to reject the faith a couple years later and become an atheist, am i still going to heaven? That would be totally absurd!

It would be absurd. It would also be very inconsistent with the Biblical description of salvation.

Salvation is preceeded by regeneration, where we receive a new nature and our old, carnal nature is crucified and replaced by a new, spiritual nature.

If our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration, then where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the formost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up this nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Also, which "Book of Life"? There's more than one, you know. And which verse are you referring to?

[COPLAND 3]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

Which "Book of Life"? There's more than one, you know. And which verse are you referring to?

The book of life is God's predestination, that is a metaphor not literally a book. I was thinking of Revelation 3:5.

[COPLAND 3]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

It would be absurd. It would also be very inconsistent with the Biblical description of salvation.

Salvation is preceeded by regeneration, where we receive a new nature and our old, carnal nature is crucified and replaced by a new, spiritual nature.

If our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration, then where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the formost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up this nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Also, which "Book of Life"? There's more than one, you know. And which verse are you referring to?

if there was no threat of ever falling out of the state of grace and going back to our old way of life, then why does the Lord and the authors of the Bible constantly warn Christians to stay the course and not fall away? Any Christian who does not struggle with the flesh is not being honest.

[David Alexander]

Greetings in peace Chuck.

I think a big issue with once saved always saved is the complacency it can encourage.

Moreover, from a Biblical perspective, the Gospels are quite clear on encouraging good works, and do you overlook James and frown on thay book the way Luther did?

I think good works are vitally important as part of the natural moral law, and whether they are further encouraged by faith or are encouraged by an uncertainty about salvation is less important than the question: are we doing good works?

I for one pray God saves all, saints and sinners alike, but to presume such would be...well, presumptious!

[Porknpie]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

It would be absurd. It would also be very inconsistent with the Biblical description of salvation.

Salvation is preceeded by regeneration, where we receive a new nature and our old, carnal nature is crucified and replaced by a new, spiritual nature.

If our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration, then where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the formost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up this nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Also, which "Book of Life"? There's more than one, you know. And which verse are you referring to?

Hi Chuck, I ask again what were Christ's own words on what we must do to be saved?

God bless you.

[TypesAndShadows]

If you want to play the prooftexting game, then of course we can fling verses back and forth to support our positions, creating the impression that the Bible is a collection of contradicting sayings to be used to support any position you choose. But eventually, you'll have to ask why you're using a book put together, preserved, and copied by the Catholic Church, and yet think the Church would have faithfully copied something that disproves its own teaching.

Anyway, if we're doing this:

Philippians 2:

12*Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13*for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Salvation is not just an one time thing: it is a process.

Or consider Romans 11. If a branch has been grafted on, and can just as easily be broken off again, doesn't that tell you that you can 'lose your salvation'. It is very explicit that you can be a branch grafted onto the olive tree, but that God will not spare the grafted branches any more than he spared the natural branches. If you lose your faith, you are no longer part of the tree, although you once were.

Or how did you think the parable of the sower (Luke 8) worked? If salvation is a one time thing that cannot be lost, there should only have been good wheat and wheat that never sprouted.

I have been saved. I am being saved. I hope to be saved. I have, in the past, turned my back on God by committing grave sins. I have been in a state of grace, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and rejected it by willfully sinning. I even lost my faith. But I came back, by the grace of God I came back and repented, and confessed my sins and received absolution, and received the Body of Christ, and had life in me again. Again, I was saved, and hope to be saved. Again, I had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I know I can lose it again by willful sin, but I'm now at a stage where most of those sins just don't look that attractive. I don't want to lose my salvation, and my state of grace, and the sins look ugly. I am closer to my hoped for salvation than I was, but I can still lose it! I am grateful for the gift of being able to feel when I am in a state of grace.

We can save a lot of time if you have a look through this webpage which lays out a lot of little Scripture quotes (you'll need your Bible on hand, as it doesn't usually quote them) to support the Catholic view. Then, understanding how we are using the word 'salvation', you can maybe bring up the particular points you disagree with, and explain how you think the specific quotes used to support it should instead be understood.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sal...l#salvation-IV

As we can see, the webpage I linked to explains how typical "OSAS" prooftext verses can be understood within the Catholic view of salvation.

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

The book of life is God's predestination, that is a metaphor not literally a book.

So you claim. But if it's really pre-destination, then how can one be blotted out of what was already pre-destined?

I was thinking of Revelation 3:5.

Maybe you should have read that a little more carefully. It says they will never be blotted out of the Book of Life.

if there was no threat of ever falling out of the state of grace and going back to our old way of life, then why does the Lord and the authors of the Bible constantly warn Christians to stay the course and not fall away?

Could you please name the specific verses where "the Lord and the authors of the Bible" tell saved believers they can fall away?

Originally Posted by David Alexander

the Gospels are quite clear on encouraging good works, and do you overlook James and frown on thay book the way Luther did?

No, I didn't overlook it at all. I just didn't address it because it wasn't brought up. Would you like to discuss it?

I'll even start. Here are my comments from a thread about James 2:17-24:

The first is that we know that James cannot mean that Abraham was righteous because of his own good works because he already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift in the previous chapter (James 1:17-18).

Second, in the middle of the very passage you took James 2:24 from, James quotes Genesis 15:6, which says in no uncertain terms that God accounted Abraham righteous not because of his works, but on the basis of his faith because he believed.

The third nail in the coffin of your claim is that the "work" that James said justified Abraham was the offering of Isaac, an event which occurred many years after Abraham exercised his faith and was declared righteous by God (see Gen 12:1-7, 15:6). Abraham's offering of Isaac only demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication of a person's claim of salvation. James' teaching perfectly compliments Paul's writings, which state that salvation is determined by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9) and is demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God's will (Eph 2:10).

Now, this is the part where you say "Well, that's just your interpretation".

I think good works are vitally important as part of the natural moral law, and whether they are further encouraged by faith or are encouraged by an uncertainty about salvation is less important than the question: are we doing good works?

The question is, are our good works a result of the salvation we have received or an attempt to earn our salvation?

Originally Posted by porknpie

Hi Chuck, I ask again what were Christ's own words on what we must do to be saved?

Are you referring to His words to the Rich Young Ruler or in general?

Originally Posted by typesandshadows

Salvation is not just an one time thing: it is a process.

Then why does the Bible speak of salvation in terms of a one time, and for the believer, completed, event?

Or consider Romans 11. If a branch has been grafted on, and can just as easily be broken off again, doesn't that tell you that you can 'lose your salvation'. It is very explicit that you can be a branch grafted onto the olive tree, but that God will not spare the grafted branches any more than he spared the natural branches. If you lose your faith, you are no longer part of the tree, although you once were.

Actually, this passage is about God bringing the Gospel to the gentiles, not about how Christ is incapable of keeping that which the Father has given Him or to keep us from stumbling.

Or how did you think the parable of the sower (Luke 8) worked? If salvation is a one time thing that cannot be lost, there should only have been good wheat and wheat that never sprouted.

First of all, the parable is a parable.

Second, the parable talks about those who are saved and those who aren't. It never says the saved believer can lose his salvation.

I have been saved. I am being saved. I hope to be saved. I have, in the past, turned my back on God by committing grave sins. I have been in a state of grace, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and rejected it by willfully sinning. I even lost my faith. But I came back, by the grace of God I came back and repented, and confessed my sins and received absolution, and received the Body of Christ, and had life in me again. Again, I was saved, and hope to be saved. Again, I had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I know I can lose it again by willful sin, but I'm now at a stage where most of those sins just don't look that attractive. I don't want to lose my salvation, and my state of grace, and the sins look ugly. I am closer to my hoped for salvation than I was, but I can still lose it! I am grateful for the gift of being able to feel when I am in a state of grace.

So then it sounds like you never know whether you're saved from one day to the next.

That doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

[onenow1]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

How could Jesus of said it is finished? If I could fall away then it wasn't finished, something else had to be done. If something else had to be done Jesus would have been lying.
What say you?

Hi, Thrower

The Catholic Church uses the bible in its entirety,and in context it does not pick and choose,after all 2000yrs of teaching must mean something. There are many verses that say it is not finished;such as the vine and the branches, and in John 6,of course the bread of life discourse; " you have no life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man.

Consider: Would it be necessary for Jesus to send the Apostles to form a Church ?

Acts 9, St.Paul is converted; would it be necessary as a good Jew, to be converted if all was finished ?

God Bless
onenow1