article: Gay and married to a woman

[Litcrit]

Originally Posted by cmscms

That is where I stopped reading. To start off by showing it is possible to have SSA and still do God's will and then turn around and say there are other options is hypocritical. I was actually saddened because at first I though perhaps society is finally trying to find a way to help homosexuals without harming them and then I find out the pressure to let them continue their sinful ways is still prevalent in society

CM

But he gave his definitions of "gay" and "religious" before that point - and he very clearly said that if

you choose to live your religion, you are sacrificing the ability to have a romantic relationship with a same-sex partner.

[cmscms]

Originally Posted by Litcrit

But he gave his definitions of "gay" and "religious" before that point - and he very clearly said that if

Good point. But I still thint that Christians have a responsibility to discourage homosexual relations

[TEPO]

Gay and married to a woman

TMI..... W-TMI.

[sdeco]

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

[The Bucket]

Originally Posted by sdeco

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

I don't know. I have a tough time believing that it would be invalid given that she was aware of the situation and they both knew what they were doing. I'll make a comparison to alcoholics here though I know it's an imperfect analogy. Say an alcoholic has been through recovery. He's told a future spouse about his condition and she loves him anyway and they marry. He's always going to be an alcoholic even if he never touches another drink again. Always crippled in some way that could make it tough for him to live up to his vows. But she's well aware of his condition and he's addressing the situation. Should he be precluded from a valid, sacramental marriage?

What about any kind of other disorder? Suffers of grave depression. Overeaters. Sex addicts. Drug users. I understand that if it is hidden at the time of the marriage and/or if there has not been any attempt to remedy the situation you'd have a case for invalidity. But the guy's not a sociopath or a psychotic. He's struggling like many other people struggle with serious mental or emotional handicaps but is nevertheless striving onward to live according to God's plan. I daresay given that his condition was not hidden from his spouse before marriage that their union would be valid.

[SonCatcher]

Originally Posted by sdeco

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

I don't see "attracted to the opposite sex" as a condition for valid marriage. Currently, if a couple marries, one spouse discovers he is attracted to the same sex and they later divorce, a marriage tribunal would be likely find grounds for annulment in being unable to provide proper consent.

However, in this case, both of them knew the struggles he was dealing with years before their marriage. They dealt with each other honestly. They chose marriage in spite of those difficulties with the hope of helping each other through them. It honestly seems to me their marriage is just as valid as if they were both "straight".

BTW - all persons are called to chastity, even married couples.

[SpeSalvi]

Originally Posted by sdeco

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

The dynamics in the LDS and Catholic Churches are very different when it comes to marriage. In the LDS church, there is no such thing as celibacy; if you want to get to the highest level of heaven you MUST be married. In that context, this blogger is really trying to be the best Mormon he can be and that means getting married in the temple, no exceptions.

Celibacy is a very valid option in the Catholic Church, but not in the LDS church. I don't know that a Catholic with SSA would feel the pressure to marry like a member of the LDS church would, which is why validity as far as the Catholic Church hasn't come up. We have options :-)

[Lisa De Ruyter]

Originally Posted by sdeco

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

You make a very good point here. Anything goes with the Weed's when it comes to your sexual feelings and what you do with them check this You Tube Video out that I am posting below from Josh and Lolly: "Talking to your children about sex part 1"

In fact they are both encouraging gay and homosexual activity, masturbation and sex before marriage. They said about 6:00 on this you tube video "when your a teenager it is not the time....... so look forward to it " (they never speak about saving sex for marriage only -God's plan) and you also say "sexual feelings are totally normal, and totally normal and God given and I never felt it was bad when I was feeling any sexual stirring , God gave this to me .............. and now do with it what you want ..you have the choose now to respond to it....feelings are not evil for anybody, for gay or straight or anybody, having feelings is ok it is part of life so you process them and decide what you want to do... And also Josh in his "Coming out of the closet..." article he states clearly in #8 that there is no incorrect path for "gay religious" to live out their lives, although Josh has chosen to marry. According to God there is only one straight narrow path (for religious to choose)and that path is very narrow. Josh and Lolly Weed will be harming many gay and homosexuals as well as others if they don't understand that clearly sex was meant only in marriage with a man and woman to pro-create. Outside of God’s plan for marriage sex is very destructive, including fortification, polygamy, homosexual activity, masturbation, contraception, abortion, etc... All sex outside of God's plans for marriage of God's plan is grave sin and God our loving Father knows what is best for us not Josh and Lolly.

Truly, with this kind of advice who knows what this guy does, he is mixed up and I pray many people will see through their sorry advice. http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=1Uwb5yog1CY

[Lisa De Ruyter]

We need to stop identifying men as gay religious etc... God made us male and female, children of God and heirs of heaven. He did not make us homosexual, gay, lesbian, adulterers, perverts, etc....

Here below is a great article for us Catholics on how to deal lovingly with homosexual and gays.

"In a society which generally is experiencing a disordered attitude toward the natural meaning of sexuality, homosexual men and women must avoid identifying their personhood and indeed their sexuality with their sexual orientation.” PASTORAL LETTER ON HOMOSEXUALITY Bishop Thomas Daily EWTN http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/DAILY.HTM

[AthenaC]

Originally Posted by SpeSalvi

The dynamics in the LDS and Catholic Churches are very different when it comes to marriage. In the LDS church, there is no such thing as celibacy; if you want to get to the highest level of heaven you MUST be married. In that context, this blogger is really trying to be the best Mormon he can be and that means getting married in the temple, no exceptions.

Celibacy is a very valid option in the Catholic Church, but not in the LDS church. I don't know that a Catholic with SSA would feel the pressure to marry like a member of the LDS church would, which is why validity as far as the Catholic Church hasn't come up. We have options :-)

One of my Facebook responses was from an ex-Mormon who basically stated your first paragraph here, but you articulated it much better. Also, her opinion was that he would be happier in a same-sex relationship.

I suppose the answer is different for everyone, but I would think more gay / lesbian people would find more happiness being married than being celibate. If you're married, you have companionship, intimacy, and possibly children. But then, I'm not a lesbian, so I guess my opinion doesn't mean much.

Originally Posted by Lisa De Ruyter

You make a very good point here. Anything goes with the Weed's when it comes to your sexual feelings and what you do with them check this You Tube Video out that I am posting below from Josh and Lolly: "Talking to your children about sex part 1"

In fact they are both encouraging gay and homosexual activity, masturbation and sex before marriage. They said about 6:00 on this you tube video "when your a teenager it is not the time....... so look forward to it " (they never speak about saving sex for marriage only -God's plan) and you also say "sexual feelings are totally normal, and totally normal and God given and I never felt it was bad when I was feeling any sexual stirring , God gave this to me .............. and now do with it what you want ..you have the choose now to respond to it....feelings are not evil for anybody, for gay or straight or anybody, having feelings is ok it is part of life so you process them and decide what you want to do... And also Josh in his "Coming out of the closet..." article he states clearly in #8 that there is no incorrect path for "gay religious" to live out their lives, although Josh has chosen to marry. According to God there is only one straight narrow path (for religious to choose)and that path is very narrow. Josh and Lolly Weed will be harming many gay and homosexuals as well as others if they don't understand that clearly sex was meant only in marriage with a man and woman to pro-create. Outside of God’s plan for marriage sex is very destructive, including fortification, polygamy, homosexual activity, masturbation, contraception, abortion, etc... All sex outside of God's plans for marriage of God's plan is grave sin and God our loving Father knows what is best for us not Josh and Lolly.

Truly, with this kind of advice who knows what this guy does, he is mixed up and I pray many people will see through their sorry advice. http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=1Uwb5yog1CY

Please understand that as we are Catholic and as they are Mormons, it is fundamentally unfair to hold them up to a Catholic standard, see that they don't measure up, and throw all their wisdom out the window. So when he says that there is "no incorrect path" for gay religious, that would be a good example of this. I don't believe their concept of "sin" is the same as ours, although I welcome correction on this front. He knows that a particular cocktail of experience made it so that he is able to be happily married, but he also knows that not everyone has that luxury. What's most important is that he looks around and sees people on a level that appreciates the whole person, without undue focus on the hetero / homo classification - this is something many of us would do well to emulate.

I think you misrepresent their position with the "Anything goes" comment. If you read the part I bolded, they have a lot of wisdom. Sexual feelings are not evil, they are God-given, and yes, God did make us this way - gay or straight. And yes, it is the responsibility of the individual to decide how they will respond to these feelings. I think this is very valuable advice, because it encourages thoughtfulness and prudence rather than following one's instincts without question, but it also reminds us that it is unhealthy to view sex as dirty or bad, which is a lesson many Catholics appear to need.

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by AthenaC

One of my Facebook responses was from an ex-Mormon who basically stated your first paragraph here, but you articulated it much better. Also, her opinion was that he would be happier in a same-sex relationship.

I suppose the answer is different for everyone, but I would think more gay / lesbian people would find more happiness being married than being celibate. If you're married, you have companionship, intimacy, and possibly children. But then, I'm not a lesbian, so I guess my opinion doesn't mean much.



Please understand that as we are Catholic and as they are Mormons, it is fundamentally unfair to hold them up to a Catholic standard, see that they don't measure up, and throw all their wisdom out the window. So when he says that there is "no incorrect path" for gay religious, that would be a good example of this. I don't believe their concept of "sin" is the same as ours, although I welcome correction on this front. He knows that a particular cocktail of experience made it so that he is able to be happily married, but he also knows that not everyone has that luxury. What's most important is that he looks around and sees people on a level that appreciates the whole person, without undue focus on the hetero / homo classification - this is something many of us would do well to emulate.

I think you misrepresent their position with the "Anything goes" comment. If you read the part I bolded, they have a lot of wisdom. Sexual feelings are not evil, they are God-given, and yes, God did make us this way - gay or straight. And yes, it is the responsibility of the individual to decide how they will respond to these feelings. I think this is very valuable advice, because it encourages thoughtfulness and prudence rather than following one's instincts without question, but it also reminds us that it is unhealthy to view sex as dirty or bad, which is a lesson many Catholics appear to need.

It just happens to be in some people's nature to look at the "wrong" side of everyone and nit pick.
What can ya do.

http://inurashii.tumblr.com/post/248...f-the-day-josh

- I'm sure they'd have quite a different video if they had gone by all the responses on CAF.

[SonCatcher]

Originally Posted by Debora123

It just happens to be in some people's nature to look at the "wrong" side of everyone and nit pick.
What can ya do.

http://inurashii.tumblr.com/post/248...f-the-day-josh

- I'm sure they'd have quite a different video if they had gone by all the responses on CAF.

There are only a few naysayers even here. Mostly bewildered people. Apparently they had some negative response on their blog, as well, but not virulent. Neither has the response here been awful. The most negative posts really have been doubt over whether a gay man could validly marry a woman (a debate which is irrelevant to them since they ate not Catholic).

That was a cute little bottle of Tabasco.

[Dakota Roberts]

Originally Posted by Lisa De Ruyter

One more thing and I mean this with all respect to Josh and his wife. God made us male and female in his own image and likeness. I think Josh struggles with the same sex attraction sins of lust and God has blessed Josh to fight them and live in His beautiful image of husband and wife. Josh is trying to label himself as homosexual and a gay, because of these feelings he is fighting, but he is a child of God living in God's image as a husband who has a wife. Lolly and Josh are both now truly one flesh. We all must help Josh understand that he can't be a gay/homosexual and married?

The attractions in themselves are not lust. He understands that condition substantially better than you.

Originally Posted by sdeco

I know this couple is mormon, but from a Catholic perspective, I don't see how this marriage can be valid, as loving as it may be. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, not marry the opposite sex, unless they can change their orientation, which most people can't. It's possible he's bisexual, in which case it wouldn't be a problem. But if he's really gay, he can't validly marry a woman, even if he has children with her. I mean, does he have to fantasize about men to have relations with his wife? I'm surprised no one has brought this up. I can't see a Catholic priest marrying a couple where one spouse admitted he was gay.

Chastity is not celibacy, he is free to marry her as long as he is honest about himself. If you reread it he is not thinking of sex with men when he is engaging in relations with his wife.

Originally Posted by AthenaC

One of my Facebook responses was from an ex-Mormon who basically stated your first paragraph here, but you articulated it much better. Also, her opinion was that he would be happier in a same-sex relationship.

I suppose the answer is different for everyone, but I would think more gay / lesbian people would find more happiness being married than being celibate. If you're married, you have companionship, intimacy, and possibly children. But then, I'm not a lesbian, so I guess my opinion doesn't mean much.

Please understand that as we are Catholic and as they are Mormons, it is fundamentally unfair to hold them up to a Catholic standard, see that they don't measure up, and throw all their wisdom out the window. So when he says that there is "no incorrect path" for gay religious, that would be a good example of this. I don't believe their concept of "sin" is the same as ours, although I welcome correction on this front. He knows that a particular cocktail of experience made it so that he is able to be happily married, but he also knows that not everyone has that luxury. What's most important is that he looks around and sees people on a level that appreciates the whole person, without undue focus on the hetero / homo classification - this is something many of us would do well to emulate.

I think you misrepresent their position with the "Anything goes" comment. If you read the part I bolded, they have a lot of wisdom. Sexual feelings are not evil, they are God-given, and yes, God did make us this way - gay or straight. And yes, it is the responsibility of the individual to decide how they will respond to these feelings. I think this is very valuable advice, because it encourages thoughtfulness and prudence rather than following one's instincts without question, but it also reminds us that it is unhealthy to view sex as dirty or bad, which is a lesson many Catholics appear to need.

The last paragraph is quite accurate.

[sdeco]

I still don't see how this can be a valid marriage, unless, again, he is actually bisexual. If he doesn't fantasize about men, then maybe he is actually bisexual, or at least has found one woman he is attracted to. But assuming he really is gay, he can't possibly love his wife the way she deserves to be loved. Marriage is more than just being really good friends. The comparison to alcoholism is a faulty analogy. Homosexuality is something that affects the core of what marriage is. Sex is at the center of marriage. I guarantee you that someone who is exclusively attracted to the same sex cannot validly marry in the Catholic Church. When I said that homosexuals should be "chaste," I meant celibate. I thought that was pretty obvious.

I understand that as Mormons, there is no option to be celibate (or at least it would be considered very weird,) and they believe that one has to be married in order to enter the highest level of heaven. So I understand why this guy got married. I just wouldn't want homosexual Catholics to think they should marry someone of the opposite sex. That isn't fair to the spouse.

[JimG]

I don't think that Catholic marriage laws say anything about "attraction" or "orientation."
Antecedent and permanent inability to engage in marital intercourse--i.e., permanent and incurable impotence--would be an impediment to marriage, as would lack of consent. But if both parties give consent and are capable of marital intercourse, I don't see an impediment to marriage.