Help with our "indecisive"? three year old

[papaececi]

I hope some more experienced parents can offer advice on a particular problem we have with our three year old. She seems to have trouble living with the consequences of decisions, even in relatively small matters, and melts down into tears right after she makes a choice. This is particularly a problem when it comes to dinner time. We offer her dinner (what we are eating - with the exception of really spicy food) and she eats one or two bites and then says she is done. After sitting at the table for the duration of dinner while we are eating we say grace after meals and then she gets down from the table. Sometimes she begins wailing right away saying she is hungry. Other times it is bedtime when she says she is hungry. On the advice of our pediatrician, we don't feed her after dinner is over and we tell her "it's not dinner time anymore." We've also discussed how we eat until we don't feel hungry any longer, etc. It's seems like this is taking an awfully long time to sink in. Even with warnings each night that no more food is coming, we still repeat the same process almost nightly and this has been going on for a couple of months.

[Trishie]

My immediate reation would be: It sounds as if instead of being a peaceful time to eat, mealtimes are reinforced as a stressful time and so she is fearful, and fearfulness leads to indecisiveness because she knows she's in a landmine area.
I know what it's like to know that even if you are trying your best as well as you understand, you will be in trouble anytime. It does make one indecisive because the situation creates fear in a sensitive person. If it becomes habitual, it is very hard to overcome that kind of fear, that any which way you are sure to be in strife. I myself know...

How much does a three-year-old understand?
And is it best practice to give a child choice of meal when she can't cope with dilemmas yet. The Church holds that the age of reason is 7...and a question might be how much can we expect of a three year old's capability?.

When I was three, I was following my Daddy around the back yard. He flicked something and said, "don't touch that." It wasn't with the least concept of disobedience, but pure innocence, that I bent down and held it briefly between thumb and finger. It stung.
Since then I have always know that what is seen as wilful disobedience in a three-year-old or younger can be innocence. I said nothing as I wasn't a child who communicated. I was a shy child and easily hurt.

Children do need to know boundaries, but not to the degree it imprisons them.
I used to see my eldest little son's eyes go completely blank because his Dad was very authoritarian and enforced strict table manners on him at age two and three.
My eldest son's self-esteem was very low for many years because he was the brunt of such authoritarian treatment. My other children were happier and less fearful and more confident, because he wasn't as rigid with them.

My sons are good men, the best, but my eldest had the most trouble in sorting out his life and happiness.

I'm not saying all this is the case with you, but just reflecting what can happen if we over-regiment. My sons were and are well behaved, but I do know that fearfulness leads to a child who lies, and who copes less well with life.

It is not healthy for mealtimes to cause her to cry and suffer. Yes, it's true there can be battles, even when a parent puts healthy food in front of a child without requiring the child to make decisions about it. "Eat what's put in front of you" at least helps a child to know what's expected...and a child may need more time to finish, and that should be okay.
Please forgive my honesty. I do understand wanting our children to be a 'good' as they can possibly be.

[papaececi]

I appreciate what you are saying about sensitivity, because she does tend to be a sensitive child. To us, eating or not eating is not being about being "good." We don't comment on what she does or doesn't eat or force her to finish or try anything. When she tells us she is done, we simply ask if she has eaten enough that she is not hungry any longer.

The understanding thing is something I asked the pediatrician about and she said she should be able to "get it" if we were consistent with her.

[Trishie]

Fortunately habits of response like your daughter now has, can be overcome with patience.
My eldest son was stolen interState until he was seven. When my son finally got his son, who was undernourished, he, and we had a major problem to overcome. The little boy wasn't used to healthy food, and at mealtimes he would be deadly white, looking as if we, and his Dad, were poisoning him. He'd hold it in his cheeks and chew and chew but choke rather than swallow. It took a couple of years of patience and sometimes a long wait while he finished what seemed reasonable, but we encouraged as kindly as we could and gave him time. As he grew to like some healthy foods we were elated and so was he. We let him know how happy we were at each little progress and that helped also. He gradually began to see mealtimes as pleasant and now cheerfully eats whatever he is given.

It's very hard being a parent. I always wished each child came with a personal manual!

Only this morning when I woke, I thought of my sons in prayer as always, and there came to mind some things I regret...and more than saying no, it is that I/we didn't say 'yes' more often. How do we get it right when we are trying our best and it still doesn't seem right. My Dad once said, "you think you are doing everything right; then the time comes that you feel you've done everything wrong; but in the end, you discover it was right."
It will come right. May God bless your husband and your little girl and you.

What you clarify in your second post sounds right
and perhaps, as children do, she will have a sudden breakthrough.
We used to find this would happen,
suddenly the child would have a sudden new leap of development, even though it took a while to come.

[airforcefamily]

We generally just leave the food at the table where it was during the meal. If the kids whine about still being hungry we tell them their food is where they left it and they are welcome to go back and eat more. The food is put away at bedtime and at that point they have to wait for breakfast. Unless a child was struggling to gain weight or had other issues going on I would not give them attention over it. It's ok to point out that the food is there and say you don't like listening to the tantrum then walk away.

[airforcefamily]

You talk about her being indecisive. What decisions, other than not eating during mealtimes, she making? What about not giving choices? I don't think I would have the patience to offer my three year old choices and deal with him second guessing himself and crying over it. I personally don't think a three year old needs to be given choices for much of anything. Simply 'here's what you're wearing' or 'this is the book we're going to read' might be enough to take the stress off her shoulders.

[papaececi]

Originally Posted by airforcefamily

You talk about her being indecisive. What decisions, other than not eating during mealtimes, she making? What about not giving choices?

The meltdowns don't often occur over choices she is "given" by us, more like daily things that come up.

The best example I can think of is that sometimes she will refuse to say good bye to my mom when talking via skype, but when we hang up, she seems to regret that she didn't say goodbye and she begins to cry.

[Ophelia23]

Originally Posted by papaececi

The meltdowns don't often occur over choices she is "given" by us, more like daily things that come up.

The best example I can think of is that sometimes she will refuse to say good bye to my mom when talking via skype, but when we hang up, she seems to regret that she didn't say goodbye and she begins to cry.

Has this been going on for long? That is to say, is it possible that this is a phase? Whether it is a phase or not, I offer my prayers for you. It is difficult to see our children in any kind of distress, and it's even more difficult when we just don't know how to help.

Have you tried allowing her a few decisions in daily life? Something we do with our toddler is I will take out two outfits for the day, and ask her of the two outfits, which she would prefer to wear. It's a controlled setting, but she is making choices. Same thing with dinner time. I'll ask her if she would rather her monkey plate or her elephant plate. Elmo cup or Abby cup. These are decisions that really have little to no consequence, but I feel (I am certainly no expert, just a mom!) I feel that allowing her these decisions has been building her confidence and trust in self.

I hope this gets better for you. Well, let me rephrase that. It WILL get better for you, but as we know if it's not one thing then it's another.

[tuscany]

Just a thought, have you ever tried having her help you with the meals ?

Like for example, if she washed some celery for you, you cut it and took the strings out, then had her fill the celery with peanut or almond butter, or cream cheese Then have her put some raisins on the top to be "Ants on a log" and dried cranberries for "Red ants on a log". Make a big deal of how SHE did made it and of how great it tastes, etc. She will be really proud of herself, and I'm guessing, will eat what she made.

Make sure that there is some job she can do with each meal, and call it her job. Even make sure that you brag on the phone to someone when you KNOW she can hear you about how good she makes the food and what a great job she does, how much you and your husband look forward to eating what she makes, etc

As to the other things, just tell her that that was her choice and that you are sorry that she didn't like the choice she made, but that she can try again tomorrow. She may keep making the wrong choices for a while till she figures out that she can make a better one that she will be happy with. When she does make the right choice, really make a big deal about what a good choice she made, etc. to reinforce making a good choice. It may take a while, but keep at it, it WILL happen !

[papaececi]

Originally Posted by Ophelia23

Has this been going on for long? That is to say, is it possible that this is a phase? )

It seems like forever , but it has probably only been two months. I am hoping it is just a phase as she learns and begins to fully understand "consequences." It almost seems like she wants to try out "refusing" to do things, but it just makes her upset. Maybe I should give her some inconsequential things to refuse!!

Yes, it is hard to see the anxiety in our kids and I hope she gets past it soon! Thanks for the prayers and the encouragement.

[Trishie]

Originally Posted by papaececi

The meltdowns don't often occur over choices she is "given" by us, more like daily things that come up.

The best example I can think of is that sometimes she will refuse to say good bye to my mom when talking via skype, but when we hang up, she seems to regret that she didn't say goodbye and she begins to cry.

That does indicate that she hasn't yet really connected in her little brain that she can control consequences by her own actions.
That this consequence also does upset her, does indicate that she is on the way to understanding that her action or inaction brings consequences. That probably puts her ahead of some adults.
One sometimes encounters persons who blame everyone else while failing to see that they bear some responsibility for outcomes. You and your husband clearly don't intend to allow that to occur! She's a lucky little girl to have such vigilant parents.

One might wonder at her reason for not wanting to say goodbye...that she doesn't want to end the cherished contact? or ?... so she has yet to learn that while we may have several conflicting emotions, we have to choose the emotion and behavior that is most important.

Although each child is different, it would be interesting to have the opinions and observations of various experts regarding the expected developments at differing stages of childhood development. Your little girl is probably doing very well even though there are still issues.

[papaececi]

Originally Posted by tuscany

Just a thought, have you ever tried having her help you with the meals ?

This is a great idea. She LOVES helping out with the meals and telling her papa that she made them. She does seem to eat a bit more when she "makes" them.

All around, she is actually a good eater and although she is thin, she is at a healthy weight according to the doctor. The problem is more the anxiety/indecision about saying she is done with dinner. We can see she is naturally a lighter eater at dinner time, which is not a big deal, but it's the fact that she says she is hungry after saying she is done that is the problem. I just don't know why she does that...

[papaececi]

Originally Posted by Trishie

One might wonder at her reason for not wanting to say goodbye...that she doesn't want to end the cherished contact?

Yes, I think this is part of it. We did talk about it the first time it happened and she told me she didn't want to end the conversation so she didn't say goodbye, and I think she understood after talking about it that that wasn't going to stop the end of the conversation. After that she has tried this out in a way that makes me think she is experimenting with "refusing." Sometimes I ask her if she will feel badly if she doesn't say goodbye and then she usually does say it and the crisis is averted. I do wonder if this is a normal part of development that is exacerbated by her natural sensitivity or if it is out of the ordinary.

[Trishie]

Originally Posted by papaececi

Yes, I think this is part of it. We did talk about it the first time it happened and she told me she didn't want to end the conversation so she didn't say goodbye, and I think she understood after talking about it that that wasn't going to stop the end of the conversation. After that she has tried this out in a way that makes me think she is experimenting with "refusing." Sometimes I ask her if she will feel badly if she doesn't say goodbye and then she usually does say it and the crisis is averted. I

I think that you and your daughter are going to have an interesting journey together.
You both are very aware, and discuss issues, and she seems an intelligent and spirited little girl. You're both blessed.

[KCT]

Originally Posted by airforcefamily

We generally just leave the food at the table where it was during the meal. If the kids whine about still being hungry we tell them their food is where they left it and they are welcome to go back and eat more. The food is put away at bedtime and at that point they have to wait for breakfast. Unless a child was struggling to gain weight or had other issues going on I would not give them attention over it. It's ok to point out that the food is there and say you don't like listening to the tantrum then walk away.

Good advice. Adults snack, why can't a child? What's the big deal about not having any food after 'dinner time' is over?

I can see not allowing junky snacks if they didn't eat more healthy food at dinner, but leaving their dinner food out to have later isn't a big deal, IMO.