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  #1  
Old Jun 18, '12, 8:40 am
Melkite Sword Melkite Sword is offline
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Default Lazarus in Luke and John

Is the Lazarus in Luke's Gospel the same as the one in John? I can't help but notice the coincidences. What is interesting to me is that one is a parable (Luke) and the other is an event (John)... ???
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Old Jun 18, '12, 9:28 am
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

Which Lazarus, the poor man or the one Jesus raised?
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Old Jun 18, '12, 10:04 am
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

There does not appear to be any similarities between the poor man Lazarus in Luke's Gospel and Lazarus from Bethany (Jesus' friend) in John's Gospel. The only thing they share in common is their name. Lazarus in Luke's Gospel is poor and destitute and apparently homeless (he lays at the rich man's gate). The Lazarus from John's Gospel is a friend of Jesus who lives with his sisters Mary and Martha in Bethany (where Jesus probably stayed when he was in the area). Lazarus' sister Mary anointed Jesus 'with a costly ointment of pure nard', which according to John's Gospel was worth three hundred denarii (about one year of salary for a laborer). So it does not sound like this Lazarus was destitute like the Lazarus in the parable from Luke's Gospel.
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Old Jun 18, '12, 11:06 am
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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Originally Posted by COPLAND 3 View Post
Which Lazarus, the poor man or the one Jesus raised?
OP has to be talking both, because Lazarus and the rich man is in one, and Lararus raised from the dead another...they do not both appear in Luke and John.
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Old Jun 18, '12, 4:03 pm
perdido1144 perdido1144 is offline
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

Lazarus is not a very common name today, but it is still a given name in the Jewish community; it comes from the Hebrew meaning "God has helped".

Helped, indeed!
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Old Jun 19, '12, 6:23 pm
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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Originally Posted by Melkite Sword View Post
Is the Lazarus in Luke's Gospel the same as the one in John? I can't help but notice the coincidences. What is interesting to me is that one is a parable (Luke) and the other is an event (John)... ???
Personally I don't think so. As was mentioned, the 'Lazarus' in the Lukan parable (who is unique in that he is the only character out of all Jesus' recorded parables to ever have a name - from the Hebrew Eleazar) is portrayed as being a beggar. In John, however, the implication s that Lazarus was a man of means - as evidenced by the fact that Mary of Bethany anoints Jesus with three hundred denarii worth of spikenard ointment and that Lazarus is recorded as apparently being buried in a burial cave (John 11:38).

Now, conflation of the two did occur during the medieval period: because the Lazarus of the parable had a name many people assumed that he was a real person, and very often he was considered to be one and the same as Lazarus of Bethany. This explains why the Order of Saint Lazarus, a number of leper hospitals and hospices, as well as lepers in general in the Middle Ages all claimed Lazarus of Bethany as their patron and honored his feast day (17th December).
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Old Jun 20, '12, 9:34 am
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

I think they are the same; but I don't think the parable is relating a scientific account of Lazarus' life. Parables are about things that people could see, and which were near to them (real events); however, they are spoken about in veiled language.

The word Parable indicates something(s) thrown beside each-other; these things thrown together (haphazardly?) are to be compared and contrasted.

In the vineyard parables, for example, the vineyard it clearly to be compared with "Israel". In the farming parables, the "earth" represents people, or the "seed" does, etc.

In this way, one doesn't need to see the rich man as a literal rich-man. It may well represent the Priests, Pharisees, or other figures of authority to whom God gave gifts to share; it was, for example, the Priest's duty to cast out demons, or attempt cure's. Lazarus had sores, and is presumed a leper -- but even that is suspect -- for a literal Leper could not come anywhere near a non-leper rich man's house. (Law prevents such things.) The reasoning of the parable here is obscure to me...

Scott Hahn (whom I often consider cavalier, but on this point I solidly agree) notes the similarity of Jesus' emotional posture toward both Lazarus's.

Jesus is quite angry with the rich man of the parable, and quite disturbed at parabolic Lazarus' death -- presumably without need. (Hellfire being assigned the rich man is a stark reminder of how extreme Jesus' anger was).

The actual Lazarus, too, died. This too is very disturbing to our Lord emotionally -- John 11:33-36.

The parabolic rich man asks that Lazarus be sent back so that his brothers may repent; The real Lazarus is also a sign to the Pharisees and even the high priest -- who follow the exact words of Abraham concerning their disbelief; John 11:46 and especially 11:50-52.

There is enough here to grasp a solid connection between the parable's teaching -- and the events of salvation history; even if every point of the parable is not yet understood in detail.

I have never seen evidence that this "brother" of Mary lived in their house; nor that he had a house of his own. What we know is that Jesus loved Lazarus -- and that Mary, who broke the oil jars over Jesus' feet -- prophesied the burial of our Lord; and also buried Lazarus; for this reason it may be supposed that possibly Lazarus was cared for by Mary/Martha on account of Jesus' teaching, and as an alms to a more distant cousin than a blood/breast brother -- for the annointing of Jesus' feet is specifically brought up in connection with Lazarus' death; John 11:2. It is in John 11:1 that we learn he is of the same "town" as Martha and Mary that Lazarus belongs.

I do respect other's opinion that it isn't the same Lazarus -- but if is not the same man, then *still* by "Lazarus" Jesus meant other people who rose from the dead; not just one specific man. It is also the boy that Elijah brought back from the dead, it is Jonas, the one mentioned in the book of Tobit (at the end, and at Nineveh).
etc.
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Old Jun 20, '12, 10:34 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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Originally Posted by Huiou Theou View Post
I think they are the same; but I don't think the parable is relating a scientific account of Lazarus' life. Parables are about things that people could see, and which were near to them (real events); however, they are spoken about in veiled language.

The word Parable indicates something(s) thrown beside each-other; these things thrown together (haphazardly?) are to be compared and contrasted.

In the vineyard parables, for example, the vineyard it clearly to be compared with "Israel". In the farming parables, the "earth" represents people, or the "seed" does, etc.

In this way, one doesn't need to see the rich man as a literal rich-man. It may well represent the Priests, Pharisees, or other figures of authority to whom God gave gifts to share; it was, for example, the Priest's duty to cast out demons, or attempt cure's. Lazarus had sores, and is presumed a leper -- but even that is suspect -- for a literal Leper could not come anywhere near a non-leper rich man's house. (Law prevents such things.) The reasoning of the parable here is obscure to me...

Scott Hahn (whom I often consider cavalier, but on this point I solidly agree) notes the similarity of Jesus' emotional posture toward both Lazarus's.

Jesus is quite angry with the rich man of the parable, and quite disturbed at parabolic Lazarus' death -- presumably without need. (Hellfire being assigned the rich man is a stark reminder of how extreme Jesus' anger was).

The actual Lazarus, too, died. This too is very disturbing to our Lord emotionally -- John 11:33-36.

The parabolic rich man asks that Lazarus be sent back so that his brothers may repent; The real Lazarus is also a sign to the Pharisees and even the high priest -- who follow the exact words of Abraham concerning their disbelief; John 11:46 and especially 11:50-52.

There is enough here to grasp a solid connection between the parable's teaching -- and the events of salvation history; even if every point of the parable is not yet understood in detail.

I have never seen evidence that this "brother" of Mary lived in their house; nor that he had a house of his own. What we know is that Jesus loved Lazarus -- and that Mary, who broke the oil jars over Jesus' feet -- prophesied the burial of our Lord; and also buried Lazarus; for this reason it may be supposed that possibly Lazarus was cared for by Mary/Martha on account of Jesus' teaching, and as an alms to a more distant cousin than a blood/breast brother -- for the annointing of Jesus' feet is specifically brought up in connection with Lazarus' death; John 11:2. It is in John 11:1 that we learn he is of the same "town" as Martha and Mary that Lazarus belongs.

I do respect other's opinion that it isn't the same Lazarus -- but if is not the same man, then *still* by "Lazarus" Jesus meant other people who rose from the dead; not just one specific man. It is also the boy that Elijah brought back from the dead, it is Jonas, the one mentioned in the book of Tobit (at the end, and at Nineveh).
etc.
There was actually an interpretation (among many) which goes that the parable was, like that of the tenants, a veiled attack against the Temple priesthood, more specifically the high priestly family. The 'rich man' is supposed to represent the high priest (Caiaphas), with the father and five brothers standing for ex-high priest Ananus/Annas (Caiaphas' father-in-law) and his five biological sons, one of whom was Caiaphas' immediate predecessor with the other four also coming to hold the office after him (three of them in succession). Then there's the whole 'not believing even if Lazarus is raised from the dead' bit.
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Old Jun 27, '12, 8:55 am
Melkite Sword Melkite Sword is offline
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huiou Theou View Post
I think they are the same; but I don't think the parable is relating a scientific account of Lazarus' life. Parables are about things that people could see, and which were near to them (real events); however, they are spoken about in veiled language.

The word Parable indicates something(s) thrown beside each-other; these things thrown together (haphazardly?) are to be compared and contrasted.

In the vineyard parables, for example, the vineyard it clearly to be compared with "Israel". In the farming parables, the "earth" represents people, or the "seed" does, etc.

In this way, one doesn't need to see the rich man as a literal rich-man. It may well represent the Priests, Pharisees, or other figures of authority to whom God gave gifts to share; it was, for example, the Priest's duty to cast out demons, or attempt cure's. Lazarus had sores, and is presumed a leper -- but even that is suspect -- for a literal Leper could not come anywhere near a non-leper rich man's house. (Law prevents such things.) The reasoning of the parable here is obscure to me...

Scott Hahn (whom I often consider cavalier, but on this point I solidly agree) notes the similarity of Jesus' emotional posture toward both Lazarus's.

Jesus is quite angry with the rich man of the parable, and quite disturbed at parabolic Lazarus' death -- presumably without need. (Hellfire being assigned the rich man is a stark reminder of how extreme Jesus' anger was).

The actual Lazarus, too, died. This too is very disturbing to our Lord emotionally -- John 11:33-36.

The parabolic rich man asks that Lazarus be sent back so that his brothers may repent; The real Lazarus is also a sign to the Pharisees and even the high priest -- who follow the exact words of Abraham concerning their disbelief; John 11:46 and especially 11:50-52.

There is enough here to grasp a solid connection between the parable's teaching -- and the events of salvation history; even if every point of the parable is not yet understood in detail.

I have never seen evidence that this "brother" of Mary lived in their house; nor that he had a house of his own. What we know is that Jesus loved Lazarus -- and that Mary, who broke the oil jars over Jesus' feet -- prophesied the burial of our Lord; and also buried Lazarus; for this reason it may be supposed that possibly Lazarus was cared for by Mary/Martha on account of Jesus' teaching, and as an alms to a more distant cousin than a blood/breast brother -- for the annointing of Jesus' feet is specifically brought up in connection with Lazarus' death; John 11:2. It is in John 11:1 that we learn he is of the same "town" as Martha and Mary that Lazarus belongs.

I do respect other's opinion that it isn't the same Lazarus -- but if is not the same man, then *still* by "Lazarus" Jesus meant other people who rose from the dead; not just one specific man. It is also the boy that Elijah brought back from the dead, it is Jonas, the one mentioned in the book of Tobit (at the end, and at Nineveh).
etc.
hmm thank you very much for your reply . Where does Scott Hahn mention it, can you please provide a reference? I tried doing a google search but nothing came up.
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Old Jun 27, '12, 11:10 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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Originally Posted by Melkite Sword View Post
Is the Lazarus in Luke's Gospel the same as the one in John? I can't help but notice the coincidences. What is interesting to me is that one is a parable (Luke) and the other is an event (John)... ???
These are two distinct persons... St. Luke's parable depicts a scene where end of times event takes place... all of the characters serve to Teach one important lesson... though it is interesting that Jesus chose to name His main character on this occasion, the fact remains that His friend, Lazarus, is far removed from the story:

a) Lazarus, the friend: family, well-known and liked, owned/rented property, was able to host events and remained alive (after Jesus brought him back from the dead).

vs.

b) Lazarus, the underdog of the parable: destitute, rejected, ignored, suffered hunger and the incidentals (environment, homeless, jobless, sick...).

Interestingly enough, many seem to ignore Jesus' revelation: "even if a man (Son of Man) came back from the dead, they would not Believe!"

Maran atha!

Angel
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Old Jun 28, '12, 10:02 pm
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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hmm thank you very much for your reply . Where does Scott Hahn mention it, can you please provide a reference? I tried doing a google search but nothing came up.
I am not sure how to locate it; I am pretty sure I was listening to him either through Catholic answer's , or on a Scott Hahn audio tape.
The discussion was some 5 to 8 years ago; but it made a strong impression on me.

Catholic Answer's keeps a radio archive, I am pretty sure...
If so, you might try searching it for Scott Hahn, and listening to them.

Best wishes...
--Andrew.
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Old Jun 28, '12, 10:49 pm
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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Originally Posted by jcrichton View Post
These are two distinct persons... St. Luke's parable depicts a scene where end of times event takes place... all of the characters serve to Teach one important lesson... though it is interesting that Jesus chose to name His main character on this occasion, the fact remains that His friend, Lazarus, is far removed from the story:

a) Lazarus, the friend: family, well-known and liked, owned/rented property, was able to host events and remained alive (after Jesus brought him back from the dead).

vs.

b) Lazarus, the underdog of the parable: destitute, rejected, ignored, suffered hunger and the incidentals (environment, homeless, jobless, sick...).

Interestingly enough, many seem to ignore Jesus' revelation: "even if a man (Son of Man) came back from the dead, they would not Believe!"

Maran atha!

Angel
I was wondering if Our Lord was not poking fun a little of his rich friend Lazarus in giving his name to the destitute sickly beggar of the parable?
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Old Jun 29, '12, 10:14 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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I was wondering if Our Lord was not poking fun a little of his rich friend Lazarus in giving his name to the destitute sickly beggar of the parable?
I though something similar... but more on the side of acknowledging his good qualities; Jesus friend, Lazarus, seemed to be well-liked and known and a generous host--these qualities could easily have given rise to that of Lazarus of the parable as this man did not hold a grudge, was known and accepted even by the wealthy, and dogs attempted to diminish his pain...

Maran atha!

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Old Jul 1, '12, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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I was wondering if Our Lord was not poking fun a little of his rich friend Lazarus in giving his name to the destitute sickly beggar of the parable?


Except the wishing to fill his belly with the scraps from the rich man's table; I wonder if having one's sores licked by dogs is a sign of destitution.
I mean, that's medicinal after all.

Even a rich man, when ill, could not be healed as we take for granted in a modern medical facility. Even the Emperor's of Rome and the Kings (Herod?) fell ill to sudden and mortal illnesses from which there was no cure by antibiotics or minor surgery.

Some dogs are friendly -- but the ancients generally didn't keep them as mere pets. The Mastiff, for example, was meant to guard the home and wife and children -- so that when the Roman soldier went off to war; when they got home they *STILL* had a wife and children.

But, in the case of Lazarus, what makes you think he was rich?

I am thinking it is Beth-ania, the house of the poor?
eg: It is not the same Beth-anias, of Mark 14:3?
I need to guess the Hebrew from the sound, beth is obviously house.
Ania / Anias, is perhaps aniwim? "poor" ? I'll have to look, but it's very close.

"And while he was in the house of Simon the leper, at Beth-any, sitting at table, a woman came in with a pot of very precious spikenard ointment, which, first breaking the pot ...

But Jesus said, Let her alone; why should you vex her? She did well to treat me so. You have the poor among you always ... she has anointed my body beforehand to prepare it for burial."

It sounds like a place of disease and alms-giving to me.
And Jesus explicitly tells us of his body in John, at the place of Lazarus' burial.

"John 11:24 Martha said to him, I know well enough that he will rise again at the resurrection, when the last day comes. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection."

Present and continual life is in the Body of Jesus; who associated himself with the poor. Lazarus was part of that body; who, then, anointed him for burial?

In the RKV, it does not say a stone hewn tomb ... although, in likeness to Jesus, he is placed in something similar; It says:
"John 11:34 Where have you laid him? he asked. Lord, they said to him, come and see."

Strange, that Lazarus were really rich -- with his own garden and tomb -- that Jesus wouldn't know where he was. He did know and love Lazarus specially.

"John 11:38 So Jesus, once more sighing to himself, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone had been placed over the mouth of it."

http://biblos.com/john/11-38.htm

The word immediately after tomb -- is a contradistinction word, the most common (literal) translation of the word is "But";
biblos.com says the word is "moreover", which is less often used -- but acceptable. The "cave" comment is used to clarify that Lazarus' burial wasn't a glorious tomb ... but something different than the word tomb might signify.

I am wondering if this tomb is more of a common catacomb; for I don't suppose it was special like the rich man's tomb which Jesus was laid in -- although the rock laid in front of Lazarus' cave is a more decorative kind of rock. (Lithos.)

Often, Lepers lived in wild places -- in Caves, even. This might even been where he lived up and until he died?
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Old Jul 1, '12, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Lazarus in Luke and John

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I though something similar... but more on the side of acknowledging his good qualities; Jesus friend, Lazarus, seemed to be well-liked and known and a generous host--these qualities could easily have given rise to that of Lazarus of the parable as this man did not hold a grudge, was known and accepted even by the wealthy, and dogs attempted to diminish his pain...

Maran atha!

Angel
Hi Angel!

Poking pfun yourself ?

Yes, I think Lazarus was not a grudge holder. His affliction, and illness, would be seen as something from God himself by many of that time. Both Lazarus' share that history. But he didn't rob the rich man in the parable; nor would Jesus have been said to have loved the real Lazarus specially if Lazarus were a thug-hypocrite in life.

Jesus associated himself with sinners, but he loved those who did the father's will. It is these he would call "friends."

What do you make of this, below?
"John 11:14 So now, Jesus told them openly, Lazarus is dead. And for your sakes, I am glad I was not there."

Did not Jesus, then, choose Lazarus' lot in life and his death?
For at the sight of weeping -- Perhaps Jesus would have not been able to resist preventing Lazarus' death ?
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