Is there salvation out of the Catholic Church?

[Jehannette]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter

The Catechism clearly states that it is possible to obtain salvation if you believe another faith, You are still saved through Christ though.

What you just quoted contradicts what you stated:

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

As for salvation in "another faith," such is certainly possible:

“Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)

Many of the gentiles received revelations of Christ, as is clear from their predictions. Thus we read ( Job 19:25): “I know that my Redeemer liveth.” The Sibyl too foretold certain things about Christ, as Augustine states (Contra Faust. xiii, 15). Moreover, we read in the history of the Romans, that at the time of Constantine Augustus and his mother Irene a tomb was discovered, wherein lay a man on whose breast was a golden plate with the inscription: “Christ shall be born of a virgin, and in Him, I believe. O sun, during the lifetime of Irene and Constantine, thou shalt see me again”. If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.” (Summa Theologica IIa IIae, q.2, a.7, ad 3)

However, if you claim that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc., are incapable of culpably rejecting the One True Faith & Church, then you are denying human free will. If Muslims are capable of being "invincibly ignorant," then they, if they have human free will, must also at least be capable of being "vincibly ignorant," and since we cannot distinguish the former from the latter, "the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." (CCC, #848).

[Nabooru]

^This is what I think - the Mediator. To me, the way a person who is not aware of Christ to be saved would be wishing very much that a person like Christ existed, so that person could humbly submit themselves to Him in trust and faith. It really is a desire for baptism.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by SheepofChrist

To whomever this may concern

I have encountered a very touchy subject here on this website. Here is the tread I encountered http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=650617 it's titled "According to the Catholic Church do Muslims go to heaven?". This has caused me to contemplate about Islam, and what it means to me and if the answers listed are really true. I was particularly stunned a remark I saw “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. So does this mean that Protestants, too won’t go to heaven?

Now, I have had an obsession with the religion Islam for a while now (it's been about six months or so), and I have learned quite a bit about the religion. One thing that astonished me, was when I learned that Allah, is the same God that I worship. Ever since, I always get this happy feeling when I see a little white cap or headscarf.
Islam has impacted me in such a way that when I wake up in the mornings, I automatically say “Praise Allah, I’m alive”—but always with the trinity in mind.
Because of my encounter with Islam, I
• like the culture
• I refer to God as Allah
• I’m learning Arabic (for travel and a personal goal that I want to achieve)

There have been many misconceptions about Islam, that unfortunately I used to believe: such as Muslim’s believe in jihad (holy wars, to spread Islam), which is so unture, because the Qur’an forbids forcing people to convert. Yes there were jihads in early Islamic days, but like the Crusaders, this was not a happy part of their religion’s history.

Often, I hear (or mostly read) the phrase: "The only way to heaven is through Christ."
I, personally think that God won't judge us, whether we believe in HIM as trinity or not--as long as you're belonging to the three monotheistic religions. Muslims agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims will enter Paradise/Heaven/Jannah, and someone gave me reference to this verse from the Qur’an: Al-Baqarah Chapter 2 : Verse 63
“Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - which ever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.” – is Christian and Catholic doctrine similar?

I heard from a friend of mine who is a SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) that the ONLY way is through Christ, but if you've never been exposed to Christ, then God will judge you by the way you worshipped your god(s).

Moreover, Pope John II was the first pope to pray at a mosque and he even kissed the Qur'an! Surely this means that Islam has significance to the John Paul II.-- this event has made me delve deeper into Islam, and I still believe that Muslims WILL go to Heaven with the Christians and the Jews.

I understand that that not everyone posting on this website is an expert, or even knows what they are saying, but the tread has really got me thinking and has muddled up my thoughts. This is why I am posting in the “Ask an apologetic” section.

I thank you for you time and energy in answering my question--I'll really appreciate it.



In Christ
Sheepofchrist

Let me give you the short answer. Anyone who consciously rejects Christ and his Church (The Catholic Church) and dies unrepentant will not be saved.

[underacloud]

Originally Posted by sw85

Invincible ignorance is a very high hurdle to clear, as I see it. I suspect most Muslims do not satisfy it, having heard of Christ and simply rejected Him out of hand.

Invincible ignorance is far more complicated than this. Yes, there are those who have never heard the gospel message and remain entirely ignorant of it. But there are those who have heard the message, yet potentially remain in invincible (or merely vincible) ignorance. We can't just say that Muslims have heard of Christ, so can't claim invincible ignorance. It matters how they have heard of Christ (they are taught incorrectly about Him) and whether their erroneous views are their own fault of not; what they could reasonably have done to learn the truth themselves. To say they reject "out of hand" actually means they do not give it any real thought, so their rejection of Christ is an ignorant one...but what type of ignorance?

Here is an excellent article discussing ignorance by apologist Jimmy Akin:

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...fm?recnum=1203

This article is very pertinent this this discussion, especially towards the end:

"Fifth, Feeneyites sometimes assert that there are no individuals who are invincibly ignorant of the necessities of baptism and embracing the Catholic faith. This position reflects a misunderstanding concerning what constitutes reasonable deliberation for many in the non-Catholic world. If someone has never heard of the Christian faith, or if he has been taught all his life that the Catholic Church is evil, then it could well be that he would not discover the truth of the Christian faith or the Catholic Church merely by exercising reasonable diligence in weighing the various religious options presented to him.

In many parts of the world it is easy for people to display reasonable but not supererogatory diligence and be invincibly ignorant concerning the Christian faith in general or the Catholic Church in particular. The assertion that there are no invincibly ignorant people also is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are "righteous people in all religions" (CCC 2569)."


In all this we must acknowledge that the catechism outlines the mechanisms for potential salvation, for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. But it does not describe, nor could it, the mind of God in all of this and the standards that He will apply to each of us at our personal judgements. I hope He is extremely merciful (to me and all).

[AdamPeter]

Originally Posted by thistle

Let me give you the short answer. Anyone who consciously rejects Christ and his Church (The Catholic Church) and dies unrepentant will not be saved.

This is NOT what the Church believes or teaches - It is far more complicated than that.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter

This is NOT what the Church believes or teaches - It is far more complicated than that.

Sorry but you are wrong.

Church teaching:

- Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
- There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

- Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
- Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
- Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
- Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

[AdamPeter]

The CCC Explicitly states with regard to Islam:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

[AdamPeter]

I would say that most people of other faiths, including Muslims, fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

[Jehannette]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter

I would say that most people of other faiths, including Muslims, fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

This is a theological opinion. Saint Thomas Aquinas stated,

"The good that is proportionate to the common state of nature is to be found in the majority; and is wanting in the minority. The good that exceeds the common state of nature is to be found in the minority, and is wanting in the majority. Thus it is clear that the majority of men have a sufficient knowledge for the guidance of life; and those who have not this knowledge are said to be half-witted or foolish; but they who attain to a profound knowledge of things intelligible are a very small minority in respect to the rest. Since their eternal happiness, consisting in the vision of God, exceeds the common state of nature, and especially in so far as this is deprived of grace through the corruption of original sin, those who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.23, a.7)

The Church has never repudiated what Saint Thomas taught.

[Contra Mundum]

The only salvation people have is through Christ. That applies to those who are not Christians. Non-Christians are not saved through their religion, but through Christ, even they don't know Him. They worship God although they don't know Him. So God can save them and they can get to Heaven, but I repeat, that does not happen because of their religion.

Why Islam? That is just another Christian heresy, like Mormonism or Jehowah's Witnesses. A guy had a vision and wrote a book that complements/corrects the Bible. The only difference is that islam has been around longer and has many followers, unlike the other 2. Please learn more about this before you betray Christ for a lie.

[underacloud]

Originally Posted by Jehannette

The Church has never repudiated what Saint Thomas taught.

And has neither affirmed it nor taught it herself. Anyway, the issue of how many are saved (Christians and/or others) is separate from the means by which people can be saved, and the possibility of salvation outside of the Church (but still through the Church).

With regard to invincible ignorance, we may say (rightly or wrongly, God will judge) that many people of others faiths are invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church. This may remove culpability for matters of faith, but not as addressed previously in other matters, where natural law and their own consciences determine appropriate moral behaviour. One may be invincibly ignorant of Christ yet commit all manner of other sins than separate them from God. So ignorance of Christ isn't a free ticket past moral behaviour in general (just in case anyone thought I was implying such).

[kellerk]

Originally Posted by SheepofChrist

To whomever this may concern

I have encountered a very touchy subject here on this website. Here is the tread I encountered http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=650617 it's titled "According to the Catholic Church do Muslims go to heaven?". This has caused me to contemplate about Islam, and what it means to me and if the answers listed are really true. I was particularly stunned a remark I saw “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. So does this mean that Protestants, too won’t go to heaven?

Now, I have had an obsession with the religion Islam for a while now (it's been about six months or so), and I have learned quite a bit about the religion. One thing that astonished me, was when I learned that Allah, is the same God that I worship. Ever since, I always get this happy feeling when I see a little white cap or headscarf.
Islam has impacted me in such a way that when I wake up in the mornings, I automatically say “Praise Allah, I’m alive”—but always with the trinity in mind.
Because of my encounter with Islam, I
• like the culture
• I refer to God as Allah
• I’m learning Arabic (for travel and a personal goal that I want to achieve)

There have been many misconceptions about Islam, that unfortunately I used to believe: such as Muslim’s believe in jihad (holy wars, to spread Islam), which is so unture, because the Qur’an forbids forcing people to convert. Yes there were jihads in early Islamic days, but like the Crusaders, this was not a happy part of their religion’s history.

Often, I hear (or mostly read) the phrase: "The only way to heaven is through Christ."
I, personally think that God won't judge us, whether we believe in HIM as trinity or not--as long as you're belonging to the three monotheistic religions. Muslims agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims will enter Paradise/Heaven/Jannah, and someone gave me reference to this verse from the Qur’an: Al-Baqarah Chapter 2 : Verse 63
“Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - which ever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.” – is Christian and Catholic doctrine similar?

I heard from a friend of mine who is a SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) that the ONLY way is through Christ, but if you've never been exposed to Christ, then God will judge you by the way you worshipped your god(s).

Moreover, Pope John II was the first pope to pray at a mosque and he even kissed the Qur'an! Surely this means that Islam has significance to the John Paul II.-- this event has made me delve deeper into Islam, and I still believe that Muslims WILL go to Heaven with the Christians and the Jews.

I understand that that not everyone posting on this website is an expert, or even knows what they are saying, but the tread has really got me thinking and has muddled up my thoughts. This is why I am posting in the “Ask an apologetic” section.

I thank you for you time and energy in answering my question--I'll really appreciate it.



In Christ
Sheepofchrist

I cannot say who will and will not go to Heaven. It sounds to me that your faith is being tested. I have serious reservations even to the idea that Allah is the same as G-d. I seriously urge you to futher your research in this area. If you are getting your information from fellow Muslims, I urge you to do some independent research. Find out about how they are justified in deceiving the so called non-believers (that would be us). Also, they may not be forcing conversions (why force when deception is so easy? You must be in a position of power first to force) but see what happens when a Muslim would like to change their faith to say, Christian. Why is it Christians and Jews are persecuted in their countries if they think we are true believers, why are their few to no churches or temples in these Islamic countries? Allah can not beget a son, there can be no Word made flesh, no ultimate sacrifice for sin in Islam. How can that be if you believe in the Trinity? Did Jesus not die on the cross? If you believe he did, then in the eyes of a Muslim you are not a true believer. I believe many Muslims are deceived themselves. You must be very careful not to be deceived also, I pray the Lord be with you on this journey.

[ivebeenshown]

Originally Posted by SheepofChrist

someone gave me reference to this verse from the Qur’an: Al-Baqarah Chapter 2 : Verse 63
“Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - which ever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”

Eh... I wouldn't count on that. 'Official' Muslim interpretation of that seems to be that this verse reads more faithfully as:

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter

I would say that most people of other faiths, including Muslims, fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

I would totally disagree with that. I would say all other faiths do not fall under invincible ignorance as they know about Christ, his Gospel and his Church but reject them. That is not invincible ignorance.

Conscious rejection of Christ and his Church and dying unrepentant means they will not be saved.

[AdamPeter]

You cannot know that as you are not God and that is not what the church teaches. It's in the Catechism. I have quoted it twice now...It is generally understood that Muslims can be saved but they are still saved by Christ.