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  #1  
Old Jun 21, '12, 9:02 am
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mandajane mandajane is offline
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Default Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Here's a hypothetical question my friends and I are discussing, I thought I'd throw it over here and see what responses I get.

If you fall away from the Church, get married outside it, then when you come back to the Church, divorce your non-Catholic spouse, is the separation or divorce a sin?

I don't think so, because as a Catholic you are not free to marry outside the Church, so all you are really guilty of is fornication with your ex. Others are saying that all divorce is a sin. I know there are people here much wiser and better read than I. So what do you think?
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  #2  
Old Jun 21, '12, 9:53 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Divorce is a grave offense against the sixth commandment. There are times when it can be tolerated-- to protect the other spouse, children, or property.

A Catholic married outside the Church who returns should convalidate their marriage with all haste.

If the marriage has broken down prior to their return to the church and the couple divorces, then one or both of them may be culpable for the actions that led to the breakdown and separation.
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  #3  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:27 am
chris138 chris138 is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

A baptized catholic must be married in the church(or have permisssion from the bishop to marry somewhere else) or the marriage isn't valid in the eyes of the church. So you are correct there was no marriage.....(I did this--and when I did get married in the Church, the priest did have to file some paperwork but it was quick and easy, nothing like the annulment process). Catholics have to have the proper form which is to be married in the church, by a priest.

Confession would be needed for fornication...becasue in the eyes of God the couple is not married.

If two protestants are married/divorced the marriage would be presumed valid and have to go thru the annulment process to remarry if coverted to the church.

God bless,
chris
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  #4  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:36 am
mamaslo mamaslo is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

sin is sin.

any time we mistreat someone else it is a sin. divorce, regardless, causes a myriad of troubling situations...and sin is involved with our responses if we are not careful.

I have found this an interesting question in my life as well. considering my story. like 1ke said, make haste to marry in the church but I wonder since it was done all done backwards if the sin is not the divorce but the disobedience and turning your heart from God in the first place to attempt a marriage outside the church.

I think that we can be guilty of sin regardless of whether or not it isn't a sacrament. We are all created in God's image.

You still have to go through the short form annulment to investigate.

I know it sounds like I am talking around this, but look at the process the church has if it were a valid attempt and broke up as opposed to invalid attempt. the valid one has a long process to prove. the invalid just needs to prove lack of form.

Was there sin committed toward the other person to get to the point of a legal divorce? like 1Ke said...one or both would be more or less culpable to get to that point...

divorce is a death regardless of wether it is from a valid or invalid marriage sacrament.
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  #5  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:49 am
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

When does the Catholic tolerate divorce?
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  #6  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:51 am
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

A legal "divorce" is not per se a sin.
In fact, most tribunals REQUIRE the entry of a legal divorce before they will even consider a petition for a decree of nullity.

Being only legally divorced and entering into a sexual relationship with another is a sin.

The church presumes ALL marriages are valid under canon law, even those outside the church and between a Catholic and a non-Catholic. Accordingly an annulment is still necessary. However as some posters have pointed out, it is a "lack of form" annulment and fairly easily determined. Nonetheless, untill a decree of nullity is issued, sexual relations outside of a valid marriage would be sinful.

I serve as an advocate in the annulment tribunal.

Be careful seeking canon law advice on an internet message board.
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  #7  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:55 am
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by cradlecatholic5 View Post
When does the Catholic tolerate divorce?
At any time in a marriage ultimately found to be null.

If the marriage is however valid, divorce can be tolerated in cases of abuse of children or spouse (for their safety), and like situations.

As an aside, I presume by "divorce" no one is referring to the Petrine or Pauline privilege.
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  #8  
Old Jun 21, '12, 10:59 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by cradlecatholic5 View Post
When does the Catholic tolerate divorce?
See canons 1151 through 1155 in canon law-- Separation With the Bond Remaining, summarized in this paragraph of the Catechism:

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
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  #9  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:01 am
mamaslo mamaslo is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

SMOM,
I have heard otherwise, but since I am not any authority, I do not want to speak absolutely.

I have not heard that the church considers all marriages as valid under canon law. I have heard that there is no marriage existing until a catholic either has permission to marry outside the church or marries within the church...according to the rules.
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  #10  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:06 am
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaslo View Post
SMOM,
I have heard otherwise, but since I am not any authority, I do not want to speak absolutely.

I have not heard that the church considers all marriages as valid under canon law. I have heard that there is no marriage existing until a catholic either has permission to marry outside the church or marries within the church...according to the rules.
Canon 1060 "Marriage enjoys the favour of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven."

This is why even a Catholic married outside the church is not free to divorce and remarry until a decree of nullity is issued ("the contrary is proven")
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  #11  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:12 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOM View Post
Canon 1060 "Marriage enjoys the favour of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven."

This is why even a Catholic married outside the church is not free to divorce and remarry until a decree of nullity is issued ("the contrary is proven")
A lack of form does not enjoy the favor of the law because there is no doubt regarding its validity. Canon 1060 is referring to cases in which doubt exists.

Can. 1108 1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, 1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, 1-2.

The lack of form is an administrative process, not a tribunal nullity case. This administrative process exists in the US and Canada, but does not exist elsewhere-- for example Europe.

It is not a nullity case at all.
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  #12  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:13 am
mamaslo mamaslo is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

but that is a bit confusing if a catholic knows they must marry in the church, and get permission etc...then they would know upon their own investigation, that they could remarry if divorce should happen...even if that isn't what they had intended from the start.

the Lack of Form nullity would cause a delay but wouldn't be proven valid...and the person knows it. (or would find out when they investigate).
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  #13  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:16 am
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
A lack of form does not enjoy the favor of the law because there is no doubt regarding its validity. Canon 1060 is referring to cases in which doubt exists.

Can. 1108 1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, 1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, 1-2.

The lack of form is an administrative process, not a tribunal nullity case. This administrative process exists in the US and Canada, but does not exist elsewhere-- for example Europe.

It is not a nullity case at all.
You are simply incorrect
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  #14  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:20 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Marriage and Divorce outside the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOM View Post
You are simply incorrect
Well, that is the training I received from our Vicar General so I guess he is incorrect too.

NOT.

Regarding Europe-- it is absolutely true that an administrative process analogous to the US tribunal process does not exist. If you have no marriage on your sacramental records, you were not married, end of story. The priest handles this in the premarital investigation. It does NOT go to any tribunal.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #15  
Old Jun 21, '12, 11:21 am
mamaslo mamaslo is offline
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