Animal suffering

spencelo · #1 Jun 25, '12, 3:26 pm

Is it wrong, on the Catholic view, to torture animals unnecessarily? If so, why doesn't the Catholic Church advocate the eradication of factory farming, where billions upon billions of animals are slaughtered every year and are forced to reside in horrible conditions?

I highly recommend this paper by Stuart Rachels: http://www.jamesrachels.org/stuart/veg.pdf

Abstract: Over the last fifty years, traditional farming has been replaced by industrial farming. Unlike traditional farming, industrial farming is abhorrently cruel to animals, environmentally destructive, awful for rural America, and wretched for human health. In this essay, I document those facts, explain why the industrial system has become dominant, and argue that we should boycott industrially produced meat. Also, I argue that we should not even kill animals humanely for food, given our uncertainty about which creatures possess a right to life. In practice, then, we should be vegetarians. To underscore the importance of these issues, I use statistics to show that industrial farming has caused more pain and suffering than the Holocaust.

Stephen168 · #2 Jun 25, '12, 4:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

Is it wrong, on the Catholic view, to torture animals unnecessarily? If so, why doesn't the Catholic Church advocate the eradication of factory farming, where billions upon billions of animals are slaughtered every year and are forced to reside in horrible conditions?

I highly recommend this paper by Stuart Rachels: http://www.jamesrachels.org/stuart/veg.pdf

Abstract: Over the last fifty years, traditional farming has been replaced by industrial farming. Unlike traditional farming, industrial farming is abhorrently cruel to animals, environmentally destructive, awful for rural America, and wretched for human health. In this essay, I document those facts, explain why the industrial system has become dominant, and argue that we should boycott industrially produced meat. Also, I argue that we should not even kill animals humanely for food, given our uncertainty about which creatures possess a right to life. In practice, then, we should be vegetarians. To underscore the importance of these issues, I use statistics to show that industrial farming has caused more pain and suffering than the Holocaust.

Having grown up in rural America, I’ve NEVER seen an animal raised in horrible conditionals. Horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer.

triumphguy · #3 Jun 25, '12, 4:58 pm

So you've never been in a factory farm then.

Or is your definition of horrible not the same as mine?

Abba · #4 Jun 25, '12, 4:59 pm

This is absurd. I did not finish reading it. Don't have the time. You cannot equate the suffering of 6 million people in the Holocaust to the suffering of farm animals.

The author does not understand human dignity and equates humans to animals. We cannot compare a man to a dog. We have a responsibility to take care of animals and treat them well and with care, but, to compare animals to humans it's off the top.

I love animals and I am all for protecting and caring for them, but the discussion needs to take place in a sensible context.

spencelo · #5 Jun 25, '12, 4:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen168

Having grown up in rural America, I’ve NEVER seen an animal raised in horrible conditionals. Horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer.

Then I suggest that you read up on the well-documented facts of factory farming -- the article I linked to is a good place to start.

spencelo · #6 Jun 25, '12, 5:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abba

This is absurd. I did not finish reading it. Don't have the time.

The author does not understand human dignity and equate humans to animal. We cannot compare a man to a dog. We have a responsibility to take care of animals and treat them well and with care, but, to compare animals to humans it's off the top.

Comparisons between humans and animals can certainly be made -- both are capable of being subjected to incredible agony and suffering. If you agree that we have a responsibility to "take care of animals and treat them well," why do you object to the conclusions that Rachel reaches?

meltzerboy · #7 Jun 25, '12, 5:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

Is it wrong, on the Catholic view, to torture animals unnecessarily? If so, why doesn't the Catholic Church advocate the eradication of factory farming, where billions upon billions of animals are slaughtered every year and are forced to reside in horrible conditions?

I highly recommend this paper by Stuart Rachels: http://www.jamesrachels.org/stuart/veg.pdf

Abstract: Over the last fifty years, traditional farming has been replaced by industrial farming. Unlike traditional farming, industrial farming is abhorrently cruel to animals, environmentally destructive, awful for rural America, and wretched for human health. In this essay, I document those facts, explain why the industrial system has become dominant, and argue that we should boycott industrially produced meat. Also, I argue that we should not even kill animals humanely for food, given our uncertainty about which creatures possess a right to life. In practice, then, we should be vegetarians. To underscore the importance of these issues, I use statistics to show that industrial farming has caused more pain and suffering than the Holocaust.

Catholicism and Judaism have virtually the same attitudes concerning this issue, namely, that animals should be treated humanely, since they are creatures created and loved by G-d and we are their guardians; however, they may be used for such things as food as well as testing drugs which have the potential of saving human lives. Judaism, like Islam, is particularly sensitive to the way animals are killed with regard to using a knife that has no nicks and is very sharp so that the least amount of pain is inflicted. If an animal suffers in the process of killing it, it is deemed unfit for consumption, that is, non-kosher. In Jewish teaching, pets must be fed before human members of the family since they do not have the cognitive power to delay their hunger needs. Despite all this, animal life is not regarded as the equivalent of human life with respect to its moral worth since animals are not created in the image of G-d, wonderful and beloved by G-d and us as they undoubtedly are.

spencelo · #8 Jun 25, '12, 5:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

Catholicism and Judaism have virtually the same attitudes concerning this issue, namely, that animals should be treated humanely, since they are creatures created and loved by G-d and we are their guardians; however, they may be used for such things as food as well as testing drugs which have the potential of saving human lives. Judaism, like Islam, is particularly sensitive to the way animals are killed with regard to using a knife that has no nicks and is very sharp so that the least amount of pain is inflicted. If an animal suffers in the process of killing it, it is deemed unfit for consumption, that is, non-kosher. In Jewish teaching, pets must be fed before human members of the family since they do not have the cognitive power to delay their hunger needs. Despite all this, animal life is not regarded as the equivalent of human life with respect to its moral worth since animals are not created in the image of G-d, wonderful and beloved by G-d and us as they undoubtedly are.

Does Judaism endorse factory farming?

Stephen168 · #9 Jun 25, '12, 5:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

Then I suggest that you read up on the well-documented facts of factory farming -- the article I linked to is a good place to start.

I known people who earn their living by raising dairy cattle, beef cattle, hogs and horse. NO horrible conditions. I don’t need someone else to tell me what I know. The reason for no horrible conditions are: Horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer.

spencelo · #10 Jun 25, '12, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen168

I known people who earn their living by raising dairy cattle, beef cattle, hogs and horse. NO horrible conditions. I don’t need someone else to tell me what I know. The reason for no horrible conditions are: Horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer.

So, no matter what the facts say, you're just going to insist otherwise?

Angelsflight · #11 Jun 25, '12, 5:28 pm

I have never seen any farm in person...but I have seen enough videos of factory farm abuse on youtube to give me nightmares forever.

Chickens and pigs in cages where they have no room to move...slaughterhouses that are absolutely repulsive...physical abuse of animals that is incredibly heartbreaking.

Its one of the reasons I became a vegetarian 20 years ago...I do hope some of these places have changed their ways since then

meltzerboy · #12 Jun 25, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

Does Judaism endorse factory farming?

Judaism is divided on the issue: no surprise here. Liberal Judaism (Reform and Reconstructionist) generally does not support factory farming, while the Orthodox branches do support it, passively. Orthodox Rabbis continue to certify meat processed according to this type of farming as kosher. Some in the Modern Orthodox community advocate vegetarianism.

Stephen168 · #13 Jun 25, '12, 5:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

So, no matter what the facts say, you're just going to insist otherwise?

The facts are horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer. I have a vegan daughter-in-law and I've spend some time reviewing her faux facts. I'm not insisting otherwise, I'm saying, I already have the facts. I will admit I don't know any one making a living raising chickens. Maybe there are people who buy chickens just to torture them. If so, I wonder how well the chickens produce.

vsedriver · #14 Jun 25, '12, 5:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelsflight

I have never seen any farm in person...but I have seen enough videos of factory farm abuse on youtube to give me nightmares forever.

Chickens and pigs in cages where they have no room to move...slaughterhouses that are absolutely repulsive...physical abuse of animals that is incredibly heartbreaking.

Its one of the reasons I became a vegetarian 20 years ago...I do hope some of these places have changed their ways since then

A simple solution to this problem is to not buy meat produced on a factory farm. Sure it will cost a little more but at least you won't feel so guilty. I have a friend who raises my pork and chicken and my next door neighbor raises my beef. I can see the cows every day. I even rescued a calf one day who got a piece of plastic stuck on his lower jaw. Stupid people often throw trash at animals not realizing that they might try to eat it.

All the animals are pasture raised and in the case of the beef, pasture bred and raised. Bulls up close are HUGE!

so if you don't buy factory farm meat they will go out of business.

triumphguy · #15 Jun 25, '12, 8:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen168

I known people who earn their living by raising dairy cattle, beef cattle, hogs and horse. NO horrible conditions. I don’t need someone else to tell me what I know. The reason for no horrible conditions are: Horrible conditions = no profit. No profit=hungry farmer.

Maybe you know good farmers who use good farming practices: because they do exist. However, a lot of farming is not so good, as you also know. Without defaming the guys you do know, it is true to say that much farming is not as good as it could be, for the animal or in quality of product.