Animal suffering - Page 6

spencelo · #76 Jul 26, '12, 10:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10gr8kids

I'm sure there are some who mistreat there animals, but this is not the norm. Don't judge all by the actions of a few.

Unfortunately this is the norm, and I was talking specifically about factory farming - not about isolated farmers who raise their own cattle (though that has problems too). The paper I linked to a wealth of information about the cruelty that goes on in the factory farming system. I suggest you take a careful look.

Stephen168 · #77 Jul 26, '12, 10:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10gr8kids

I live in rural America. As has been stated neglect and cruelty to animals equals no profit. Even this though is not why the farmers and ranchers I know take good care of there animals. It is because they truly care about ALL of God's creatures. Many farmers and ranchers go without many things to provide good care for there animals. They are up in the middle of the night to check on cows that are calving or making sure the water and fans have not quit running due to power outages after storms. Even when they go to slaughter it is important to keep stress to a minimum so the taste of meat is not effected.
Before you assume animals on a farm are treated cruelly, go find a farmer and walk a day with him. You may be amazed how much his farm animals mean to him.

I'm sure there are some who mistreat there animals, but this is not the norm. Don't judge all by the actions of a few.

10gr8kids · #78 Jul 26, '12, 11:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

Unfortunately this is the norm, and I was talking specifically about factory farming - not about isolated farmers who raise their own cattle (though that has problems too). The paper I linked to a wealth of information about the cruelty that goes on in the factory farming system. I suggest you take a careful look.

When I spoke of farmers being up in the middle of the night to check the fans and waterers this is in reference to factory farming. Since you did not realize this, I would assume you've never been to one personally. Don't read what others say and even show in videos as the absolute truth. People can twist the truth to fit their agenda. Again, I'd suggest you see the truth for yourself by finding a farmer in your area who could show you how they live. If this is not possible for you maybe you could agree that you don't have the whole truth.

spencelo · #79 Jul 26, '12, 11:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10gr8kids

When I spoke of farmers being up in the middle of the night to check the fans and waterers this is in reference to factory farming. Since you did not realize this, I would assume you've never been to one personally. Don't read what others say and even show in videos as the absolute truth. People can twist the truth to fit their agenda. Again, I'd suggest you see the truth for yourself by finding a farmer in your area who could show you how they live. If this is not possible for you maybe you could agree that you don't have the whole truth.

So your evidence of no cruelty comes from what some farmers have told you, but you would dismiss the mountains of evidence of cruelty available in the form of videos, peer-reviewed papers, well-researched reporting, and other verifiable and documented texts. The question is: which of us has the more accurate picture here? Perhaps I'm biased towards multiple corroborating sources (including video evidence), but I think I'll take reliable, verifiable information over the opinion of people who have a financial stake in the factory farming industry.

10gr8kids · #80 Jul 26, '12, 11:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

So your evidence of no cruelty comes from what some farmers have told you, but you would dismiss the mountains of evidence of cruelty available in the form of videos, peer-reviewed papers, well-researched reporting, and other verifiable and documented texts. The question is: which of us has the more accurate picture here? Perhaps I'm biased towards multiple corroborating sources (including video evidence), but I think I'll take reliable, verifiable information over the opinion of people who have a financial stake in the factory farming industry.

No. My evidence comes from what I have actually lived and seen. Once again I just ask you to find out for yourself by actually visiting a farm.

spencelo · #81 Jul 26, '12, 11:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10gr8kids

No. My evidence comes from what I have actually lived and seen. Once again I just ask you to find out for yourself by actually visiting a farm.

And I'm not denying that what you saw wasn't accurate, but surely you must realize that your experiences don't cover the larger picture of the factory farming system.

10gr8kids · #82 Jul 26, '12, 11:36 am

I appreciatate the fact that you don't doubt my observations. Thank you. I do not realize that what I have seen is not the bigger picture though. I have been around it my whole life. I do believe that some people are cruel. Whether it be to animals or their fellow human beings. I do not think it is the norm.

My view of urban living is probably completely different from yours, (I may be wrong but I assume you do not live in a rural area). Do you think you would have a truer view than I would of urban living? Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

spencelo · #83 Jul 26, '12, 11:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10gr8kids

My view of urban living is probably completely different from yours, (I may be wrong but I assume you do not live in a rural area). Do you think you would have a truer view than I would of urban living? Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

I live in an urban area, and so I base what I know off of things I've read and seen via videos. The question here is who has the more accurate picture about factory farming practices. Perhaps my view isn't entirely accurately, but the overwhelming evidence suggests systematic cruelty, and that evidence takes the form of numerous corroborating sources (including videos). Is it plausible that your first-hand experiences more accurately depicts the factory farming industry than (say) the various academic articles I've read? I don't see how.

sllhouette · #84 Jul 26, '12, 12:00 pm

My hypothesis:

My guess would be that the church has lost a tremendous amount of manpower over the last 60 or so years.

Yes, we have a responsibility to protect animal life, but that responsibility is below our responsibility to human life. We have not been fulfilling our duty to humanity so we simply do not have the time for worrying about animals.

10gr8kids · #85 Jul 26, '12, 12:01 pm

Then I guess the only thing left for me to do is to pray for God to give me wisdom to see things in the light of His Truth. I'm very sorry that you have such a bad feeling for animal agriculture and our way of life. I don't believe I should let this issue take precedence over showing love to others so this is all I will post on this subject.

May God Bless you and yours

User124 · #86 Jul 26, '12, 12:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abba

This is absurd. I did not finish reading it. Don't have the time. You cannot equate the suffering of 6 million people in the Holocaust to the suffering of farm animals.

The author does not understand human dignity and equates humans to animals. We cannot compare a man to a dog. We have a responsibility to take care of animals and treat them well and with care, but, to compare animals to humans it's off the top.

I love animals and I am all for protecting and caring for them, but the discussion needs to take place in a sensible context.

Why you can't?
You are not talking about an election to presidency to say that we can't compare the ability of a dog to a man for that position, we are talking about the ability for suffering, and to both humans and animals it's the same.

spencelo · #87 Jul 26, '12, 5:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sllhouette

My hypothesis:

My guess would be that the church has lost a tremendous amount of manpower over the last 60 or so years.

Yes, we have a responsibility to protect animal life, but that responsibility is below our responsibility to human life. We have not been fulfilling our duty to humanity so we simply do not have the time for worrying about animals.

It doesn't require a lot of manpower to stop eating meat, something that the church could easily promote (in addition to worrying about human concerns).

Stephen168 · #88 Jul 26, '12, 6:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by spencelo

It doesn't require a lot of manpower to stop eating meat, something that the church could easily promote (in addition to worrying about human concerns).

That would be against our nature

spencelo · #89 Jul 26, '12, 10:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen168

That would be against our nature

I don't see how, though you are free to elaborate why you think it is in our nature to eat meat.

JaneGrey · #90 Jul 26, '12, 10:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen168

That would be against our nature

See the 'nature' argument, by itself, has always seemed problematic. First of all, we are not lions. Secondly,There is nothing inherently wrong in going against one's nature - we do it all the time - we shave our body hair that has a God-given function, we manufacture machines that enable us to fly etc etc. So this is insufficient argument.

The average, healthy person in an industrialised society can survive without meat. Most just do not want to. Do we have a right to force people to do otherwise?

It is complicated.

Some human beings need meat more than others, such as those with celiac disease (they dont actually need meat as such, but it is more difficult for them to live on a vegetarian diet) and Inuits, perhaps.

Human beings have been going 'against' nature for centuries, if eating meat is indeed even in our nature.