Former Priests

[Corki]

Originally Posted by feed me

I wasn't saying becoming a Priest against his will, I am saying becoming celibate, and or having it forced down your throat against your will, which I believe is called incel (involuntary celibacy).

Priests do not become celibate involuntarily. They answer a vocation that includes celibacy as part of the whole package. If a man wanted to serve the Church but not as a celibate, there are many other ministries available. That's all part of the long discernment process that men who are seeking ordination go through.

And please stop saying this is forced down his throat. Not only is it rude but it disregards the thousands of men who have embraced the celibate life as priests, monks or brothers.

[TimothyH]

I am single and celibate, and discerning a call to diaconate. If I am admitted into formation and ordained, I will remain celibate for life.

Am I not free to choose that life if it is what I want? No one will have shoved it down my throat. I will have prayed and thought long and hard about it for over eight years if I make that choice.

TiggerS' post is wonderful.


-Tim-

[TiggerS]

Originally Posted by feed me

I wasn't saying becoming a Priest against his will, I am saying becoming celibate, and or having it forced down your throat against your will, which I believe is called incel (involuntary celibacy).

Celibacy in the Catholic Latin Rite priesthood (as previous members state) is not involuntary. Those who are accepted into training for the priesthood know well that a condition of the priesthood or ordained celibate diaconate is celibacy meaning lifelong celibacy. Nowadays certainly, those who do apply to be trained for the priesthood or ordained celibate diaconate are assessed for psychological and spiritual maturity prior to acceptance into these vocations. Nothing involuntary about celibacy in the priesthood nor celibate diaconate. It is freely and with understanding chosen by the candidate.

To Timothy: Congratulations and many blessings, Timothy, on your possible vocation. My apologies too for omitting to mention our ordained celibate deacons and those with a vocation/discerning to same in my previous post.

[TiggerS]

Am I not free to choose that life if it is what I want?

This is very often a very important point. Those outside of Catholicism and our Faith, and its many gifts and blessings from Baptism into The Catholic Church and then all through our lives, very often cannot just comprehend the celibate chaste way of life. For many such persons and it is sad, their sexuality rules and they do not experience that interior freedom to choose between celibacy or a non celibate state of life such as The Sacrament of Marriage. There is a vast difference psychologically and spiritually to being enslaved/ruled by one's sexuality (as expressed in a non celibate manner) and a vocation and call toThe Sacrament of Marriage. Those outside Catholicism sometimes, even often, cannot in any way understand nor comprehend that The Lord can and does grant the gift of lifelong celibacy. It is probably not the most common of gifts per head of population as it were, but still the many who do embrace the celibate chaste state and successfully and quite happily for their entire lives speaks to the very real existence of the gift in human experience. Another member did mention the many thousands of faithful and celibate priests, deacons and consecrated or dedicated lifestyles that do exist in The Church and in the celibate chaste state. Most often those in the celibate chaste state are finding Peace and Joy, happiness and fulfillment.

Is the celibate chaste state one long continuim of Peace etc.? No, such is probably extremely rare and not the most common human condition. We all without exemption have our ups and downs, problems and victories, positive times and negative times - and this is our human condition in the main - yet with all these factored in most often the chaste celibate person can happily state that he or she is happy and fulfilled in every way.
Are their exceptions? Of course there are. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule, the minority rather than the majority and facts attest to this in the case of chaste celibacy in the priesthood and other vocations in The Catholic Church.

Particularly perhaps in our day and again, it is sad, celibate chastity and for life in the various lifestyles in which it is embraced in The Catholic Church, including the priesthood, is definitely counter-cultural in modern society and not understood nor comprehended.

Jesus in His own times was counter-cultural and in most instances not understood as His human life unfolded. Eventually He paid the very highest price possible for the fact that He was counter-cultural to His own times - His society and even His own Jewish faith-profession beliefs as it was lived.

[HisIsTheCrown]

Originally Posted by Jimmygill88

I realise the church says so. However my question is what is the fundamental rationale. Not marriage per se clearly. If not then maybe the church should seriously reconsider in exactly the same way it reconsidered (and changed it) before.

Simple.
Who are you? - Christian.
What does it mean Christian ? - Follower of the Master, the Leader, the Boss, the AllWholeForever.
Christ was married ? - No.

[Jimmygill88]

Originally Posted by feed me

I wasn't saying becoming a Priest against his will, I am saying becoming celibate, and or having it forced down your throat against your will, which I believe is called incel (involuntary celibacy).

However it is undoubtedly a life against nature

[TiggerS]

It just might be a life against human nature - our natural inclinations in our disordered state of original sin, but it is not a life against a nature raised by Baptism sustained by Grace, The Mass andT he Sacraments and coupled with a special gift of God to celibate chastity to those thus called - be it a transitory or be it permanent. To those called by God to marriage, there is the gift of married chastity.

We are counter-cultural and often not understood by our culture and times and can find it very hard to be understood even with much prayerful effort, or so it may seem to our human understanding. Ours is the role of the sower - to sow the seeds everywhere. All increase, germination and growth is God's alone while ours might be the Graced by God human labour/effort. We give to Him all glory in all things, just as we do not become disccouraged (in hope) by apparent failure on the human type level. We have put our hand to the plough and do not look back. The Cross is our cherished symbol and not for nothing for out of apparent complete human failure by Jesus and His terrible death ,The Church grew and continued to grow out of the blood of martyrs as it were - and terrible times of persecution in the early Church. It was then a terrible death to be found to be a follower of Jesus.

We continue to see the great mystery of The Death and Resurrection of Jesus enacted and reflected everywhere and in all things - each with its season.

As St Paul points out, the gifts of The Holy Spirit to The Church are many and everywhere. My gifts are probably not your gifts, as your gifts are probably not mine. But all the gifts of The Holy Spirit are wherever God may ordain, and whatever God may ordain, and for the good of His Church and mankind.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pa...otalis_en.html
SACERDOTALIS CAELIBATUS

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE CELIBACY OF THE PRIEST
JUNE 24, 1967

13. The sum of these objections would appear to drown out the solemn and age-old voice of the pastors of the Church and of the masters of the spiritual life, and to nullify the living testimony of the countless ranks of saints and faithful ministers of God, for whom celibacy has been the object of the total and generous gift of themselves to the mystery of Christ, as well as its outward sign. But no, this voice, still strong and untroubled, is the voice not just of the past but of the present too. Ever intent on the realities of today, we cannot close our eyes to this magnificent, wonderful reality: that there are still today in God's holy Church, in every part of the world where she exercises her beneficent influence, great numbers of her ministers—subdeacons, deacons, priests and bishops—who are living their life of voluntary and consecrated celibacy in the most exemplary way.

Nor can we overlook the immense ranks of men and women in religious life, of laity and of young people too, united in the faithful observance of perfect chastity. They live in chastity, not out of disdain for the gift of life, but because of a greater love for that new life which springs from the Paschal mystery. They live this life of courageous self-denial and spiritual joyfulness with exemplary fidelity and also with relative facility.

This magnificent phenomenon bears testimony to an exceptional facet of the kingdom of God living in the midst of modern society, to which it renders humble and beneficial service as the "light of the world" and the "salt of the earth." (7) We cannot withhold the expression of Our admiration; the spirit of Christ is certainly breathing here.

[maryjk]

Originally Posted by feed me

I have no contempt. I meant lonely by being celibate which I should of said, and struggling with those constant temptations of being single. But then again I was diverting my anger at singleness because I know the despairing feelings of being alone. It all depends upon the persons perspective and point of view.

Just because you are angry at being single, doesn't mean every one is. Priest answer a call to the priesthood. They know they agreeing to be single. This isn't thrust on them at the last moment.

[feed me]

Originally Posted by maryjk

Just because you are angry at being single, doesn't mean every one is. Priest answer a call to the priesthood. They know they agreeing to be single. This isn't thrust on them at the last moment.

I wasn't talking about priests, I was mentioning about it in general (sorry that I don't write my answers sometimes to be more understanding). Just look at the many forums (on the internet) where people say that they can't find a person to live there life with. There is a bunch of threads on this site.

Some people just want to live a life where all they have to do is go to work, make a check, come home to wife and kids, and support them through thick and thin, but they don't get that chance because for some odd reason they get robbed of it.

Having celibacy included in your service is no different then going to buy a phone service and having a hidden fee in your contract under the dotted line.

Btw, this is a reply for both people above me and below me.

Priests do not become celibate involuntarily. They answer a vocation that includes celibacy as part of the whole package. If a man wanted to serve the Church but not as a celibate, there are many other ministries available. That's all part of the long discernment process that men who are seeking ordination go through.

And please stop saying this is forced down his throat. Not only is it rude but it disregards the thousands of men who have embraced the celibate life as priests, monks or brothers.

However it is undoubtedly a life against nature

God built that into our nature, Priest or not. God called people in the OT to perform there task do there job, married of single, and they still did it. The only life against nature today is having being wed for life with kids, where today's nature is constant hook ups and friends with benifits. Celibacy is not a rarity, nor a life against nature, it just goes against satans twisted way of life, same way with being married now for life.

[FCEGM]

Originally Posted by feed me

. . .Having celibacy included in your service is no different then going to buy a phone service and having a hidden fee in your contract under the dotted line.

It's quite different since no man approaches the Catholic priesthood, most particularly that of the Latin Church, without the understanding that the discipline of celibacy comes as part of what is expected of him.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by maryjk

Just because you are angry at being single, doesn't mean every one is. Priest answer a call to the priesthood. They know they agreeing to be single. This isn't thrust on them at the last moment.

But don't you think more men would become priests if marriage was allowed? I pray that this is changed.

[TiggerS]

Originally Posted by Irishgal49

But don't you think more men would become priests if marriage was allowed? I pray that this is changed.

We can't know the future. Certainly married men can become deacons and maintain conjugal relationships with their wife. Our married deacons are invaluable to our priesthood in the duties they can take off the priest's very long list of duties - and deacons are an ordained state in life with duties they can perform as deacons. My previous parish had an outstanding in every way married deacon and a hard worker for the parish with a dedicated and wonderful wife as well. His children had grown and left home and with their own stable vocations.

The Church in Her Superior Wisdom guided by The Holy Spirit for the good of the faithful and all mankind has clearly stated that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood will remain a celibate state in life. It is not in 'small print' and a 'hidden clause' for applicants to our priesthood. Nowadays I would think that Catholics and non Catholics alike and all members of other religions as well, as well as all others that read etc the media, are all very well aware that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood is a celibate state in life and for life.

One of the indications that a man has a vocation to the priesthood is that he is also given the gift of celibacy for the seven or eight years he is in training - before ordination - and then for the rest of his life. If a person is having problems with celibacy, I would think (and not necessarily the facts) that he would have some sort of problem with the celibate chaste state during those seven or eight years he is a student for the priesthood and prior to his ordination. If he does have problems, then he needs to speak up to authority privately about it and perhaps even come to the realization that he is not called to the priesthood.

We can get caught up in our secular culture and society and be somewhat forgetting that The Lord is in this with us all the way in every way. Our God of miracles - and The Mass and The Sacraments are miracles we live with almost daily to my mind - and for one group of miracles only. Holy Orders, The Catholic priesthood, is a Sacrament. We can start to adopt thinking that is "of this world" and becoming (or actually already is) embedded in our culture and society, the majority, and faithful Catholicism becoming almost, or already, a minority group perhaps who are counter-cultural to their own culture and society, their neighbours. And the majority who have little or no understanding of our Catholic Faith.

[TiggerS]

At times I have read something secular giving commentary on something or other Catholic - and I have thought to myself "That secular comment is completely logical and reasonable" - until I recall (and hopefully always will) that The Church is guided by The Holy Spirit in the footsteps of Jesus and to the Glory of The Father. "Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world". "And I will give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the earth, it is bound also in Heaven - and whatsoever thou shalt loose on the earth, it is loose also In Heaven" - stunning and awesome words indeed from Jesus to His Church and a complete and total guarantee that He always will be with The Church and without fail.

The Church intially had no political power nor actual wealth whatsoever, and often it was a severely persecuted Church by the political powers of the day. Then along came Constantine and the greatest political power of his day who declared that the whole Roman Empire was to be Catholic - and so The Church gradually attained wealth and political power. That was a point in our history and our history rolls on to where, we do not know for sure. But we do know for sure that Jesus will never ever desert His Church no matter what happens and that daily every single day and every second of every single day He is with us in Grace.

[HisIsTheCrown]

Let us put things in perspective.
Do you realize that most pedophilia scandals happened many, many years ago and the priests are old. And the priests who left in hordes it was many years ago?

The Seminaries were filled with people without any vocation at all. Faithful and priests wanted to gather as many "vocations" as possible because priests were one degree below God.

Then they left not because of a woman but because they had no vocation at all. some who had no vocation stayed and there it goes the scandals of priests.

Now seminaries are more open, th students enter at a mature age and not as kids, it is different.

[TiggerS]

Originally Posted by HisIsTheCrown

Let us put things in perspective.
Do you realize that most pedophilia scandals happened many, many years ago and the priests are old. And the priests who left in hordes it was many years ago?

The Seminaries were filled with people without any vocation at all. Faithful and priests wanted to gather as many "vocations" as possible because priests were one degree below God.

Then they left not because of a woman but because they had no vocation at all. some who had no vocation stayed and there it goes the scandals of priests.

Now seminaries are more open, th students enter at a mature age and not as kids, it is different.

I don't know to which post you are responding, sorry, nor why you feel that 'things'? may be out of perspective:

In my post here, I do make mention of to what you refer at least in part: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....0&postcount=43

Extract only from my post, link above : In the case of priest he would have a support system of some kind somewhere, or can seek same and/or he could ask to be laicized because he is not coping with the celibate state of life asked by his priesthood. The celibate chaste state as a way of life asks psychological maturity and one would anticipate in hpe this of one who had gone through the seminary system (or noviciate). The psychologically mature recognize when they are in some kind of trouble, and it can happen anywhere in life and be of any kind of problem, and seek assistance and advice.
I think, however, that possibly those who entered a seminar or even noviciate pre V2 certainly, may not have had the evidenced psychological and spiritual level of maturity asked prior to ordination and/or final vows nowadays. This was a mistake but not culpable as back then I think that the importance of psychological and spiritual maturity was not understood as we do today.

I think admitting to oneself that one does have a very real problem and then seeking counselling or advice from sound sources takes a level of humility as well as general psychological and spiritual maturity. We are human and faulted and problems can develop in life and at any point (none are immune) and wisdom (and humility) along with psychological and spiritual maturity clearly informs when the time has arrived to seek help and to do so.