To Choose or not to Choose sex orientation?

[CopticChristian]

The Meta Model of the mind stemming from General Semantics, NLP and Neurosemantics has progressed to the understanding that as humans we have the ability to be self reflective in our thinking. It is also understood that we can think about our thinking and register feelings about our feelings. We can in the dynamic of continually performing this self reflective behavior step outside the process and observe our thinking so that we come to recognize an executive function of the mind that has the ability to change the meaning of thoughts and feelings and thus behavior. When applied to the notion that homosexuals proclaim, that there is no choice in this regard, studies demonstrate similar findings as this….and are in conflict with the notion that "I did not choose this..I cannot change this"

Yarhouse has written a book on homosexuality and the Christian and concludes..

http://narth.com/docs/jonesyarhouse.html

In short, we do not have any conclusive answers to the question of what causes homosexuality. We do have a number of tantalizing clues that genetics, prenatal hormones, and early childhood environment and experiences, along with adult choice, can all be participants in the mix of causal factors.

This book may be of value in understanding what Christian researchers have to say...they do offer choice as a factor.


J Sex Marital Ther. 2011;37(5):404-27.
A longitudinal study of attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change.
Jones SL, Yarhouse MA.
Source
Office of Provost, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois 60187, USA. stanton.jones@wheaton.edu

Abstract
The authors conducted a quasi-experimental longitudinal study spanning 6-7 years examining attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change from homosexual orientation to heterosexual orientation. An initial sample was formed of 72 men and 26 women who were involved in a variety of Christian ministries, with measures of sexual attraction, infatuation and fantasy, and composite measures of sexual orientation and psychological distress, administered longitudinally. Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process. The authors explore methodological limitations circumscribing generalizability of the findings and alternative explanations of the findings, such as sexual identity change or adjustment.

Thoughts and beliefs when changed can cause a change in behavior.

J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jul;18(7):625-30.
Impact of environment upon gender identity and sexual orientation: a lesson for parents of children with intersex or gender confusion.
Lee PA, Houk CP.
Source
Department of Pediatrics, Penn State College of Medicine, The Milton S Hershey Medical Center, Hershey, PA, USA. plee@psu.edu

These two cases illustrate the tremendous influence played by environment and parental input on the sexual perspectives of developing children.

A strong external locus of control when imbedded into an internal locus of control can change thinking and behavior.


Christ Bioeth. 2004;10(2-3):117-35.
Sexual modification therapies: ethical controversies, philosophical disputes, and theological reflections.
Howsepian AA.
Source
Fresno Medical Education Program, University of California, San Francisco, California, USA.

I, therefore, introduce this edition of Christian Bioethics by reflecting on (a) the position of homosexuality in our current psychiatric nosology, (b) problems with drawing causal inferences from the outcomes of psychotherapy studies, and (c) the advantages and disadvantages of appealing to traditional categories of sexual orientation in this discussion, all with an eye toward more deeply elucidating core ethical concerns involving the intentional psychotherapeutic modification of sexual orientation.

Someone out there is thiniking that sexual orientation behavior can be changed dispelling the popular belief that I did not choose this and I cannot change. There is always choice.

Psychotherapy (Chic). 2010 Dec;47(4):500-11.
Facilitating congruence between religious beliefs and sexual identity with mindfulness.
Tan ES, Yarhouse MA.
Source
Eden Counseling Center, Norfolk, VA, USA. esntan@gmail.com

Mindful awareness of same-sex attraction facilitates congruence because there is less emphasis on changing behaviors, thoughts or feelings, but rather, changing the relationship the individual has to their experiences of same-sex attraction so that they are experienced as neutral, as opposed to aversive.

The core understanding of General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics is that thoughts are neutral until they are given meaning and in this dynamic as stated it mirrors the ability to self reflect in the Meta Model and discover the meaning, render that meaning neutral and get rid of phobias, fears, etc...and thus change behavior...

Homosexuality in my opinion is not fixed as a choice...

Your thoughts...

[meltzerboy]

I have a few questions relative to such studies:

1. Do these researchers ever ask the question regarding whether heterosexual orientation is a choice? If not, why not? If so, what are their findings?

2. What is the motivation of those researchers with a known religious viewpoint who do these studies? Why is the issue of choice in homosexual orientation so important to them?

3. How is choice with respect to sexual orientation (not behavior) defined?

4. Do the researchers who do these studies have any views with regard to whether alcoholism and drug addiction are a choice? What about depression and schizophrenia? Do they believe homosexual orientation is different from these disorders?

[stephe1987]

I suggest people listen to the podcasts from earlier this year on Same-Sex attraction. I think they did figure out what causes it, but these results from most studies are skewed because they have an agenda (to promote the acceptance of homosexuality, which has been happening ever since same-sex attraction was taken off the list of disorders) rather than trying to help people deal with their feelings and past experiences. They are pushing things under the rug, burying them deeper and deeper, instead of helping these people face their pasts and move forward with their lives. What's especially scary is that they are promoting a lifestyle that is known for short relationships (the ones in the media where the couple has been together 20+ years are just a few out of many... most are much, much shorter), violence (esp. lesbians), depression, STDs, high numbers of sexual partners (esp. gays) and lower life expectancy. The Catholic Church recognizes that whatever the cause--genetic, environmental, or both--people need to not give in to those feelings. For example, there is a gene that makes people more susceptible to alcoholism, but that doesn't mean these people have a free pass to become alcoholics.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I have a few questions relative to such studies:

1. Do these researchers ever ask the question regarding whether heterosexual orientation is a choice? If not, why not? If so, what are their findings?

2. What is the motivation of those researchers with a known religious viewpoint who do these studies? Why is the issue of choice in homosexual orientation so important to them?

3. How is choice with respect to sexual orientation (not behavior) defined?

4. Do the researchers who do these studies have any views with regard to whether alcoholism and drug addiction are a choice? What about depression and schizophrenia? Do they believe homosexual orientation is different from these disorders?

1. I do not know.

2. I do not know

3. I do not know

Answers to 1,2,3 could be had via email to the respective authors. They may even send you copies of their articles. I have sought and obtained information that way. Some may even speak to you on the phone. If you like I can call one. Let me know which one and what questions you want answered...it would be hard for them not to want to talk to Dr. Coptic...

4. With respect to alcoholism and addiction you as I recall you are familiar with CBT, SMART recovery is steeped in CBT... a basic tenet of CBT is as you know is "I am not my behavior"...Deptession as you know is Acute, Chronic, Idiopathic and etiologies unknown....and is a DSM category diagnosis as is schizophrenia. Homosexuals as you know have been removed from the DSM. You also area aware that William Glasser, MD., says the DSM is for the propagation of income for psychiatrists...Stanton Peele, PhD as you know denies alcoholism as a disease and points to Life Style Process as the means to the end of the problem. This program is centered on values. It is also centered on choice and using those values to make choices.

For homosexuality in this paradigm any act does not commit you to that behavior. It is a choice.

http://nationalpsychologist.com/2006...nce/10879.html

“All of these are phony diagnostic categories,” he said. “The DSM was not written to help people; it was developed to help psychiatrists – to help them make money.”

Glasser said his book, Warning: Psychiatry Can Be Hazardous to Your Mental Health, stresses mental health rather than mental illness and leave brain disorders, such as Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s, to neurologists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGOg5uqrlXY

and seen here...

[MidnightSun12]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Homosexuality in my opinion is not fixed as a choice...

Excellent thread!

People with same-sex attraction have to think of their condition as being a choice regardless of the what the supposed "science" is saying. If we treat homosexuality as being something that is out of our control then we're potentially giving up the battle before it even starts. If you allow yourself to think that homosexual temptations are out of your control when in fact they are not, then even if you reject the homosexual lifestyle you are still giving Satan an enormous weapon to wield against you (since in such a case you would have committed yourself to having to confront an unnecessary temptation in your life... and we know full well that God will NOT protect somebody who unnecessarly puts themselves in the path of temptation).

[Marc Anthony]

If we go down this road, we're chasing a red haerring. It doesn't matter. Catholics don't think homosexuals are sinful. We think homosexual acts are sinful. If we play the "Is homosexuality a choice card?" we'll get drowned out in the loud response of "NOOOOO!!!"

It doesn't matter though, because a homosexual inclination is not, and never was, a sin. Acting on that inclination is a sin, and this is the important thing.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by MidnightSun12

Excellent thread!

People with same-sex attraction have to think of their condition as being a choice regardless of the what the supposed "science" is saying. If we treat homosexuality as being something that is out of our control then we're potentially giving up the battle before it even starts. If you allow yourself to think that homosexual temptations are out of your control when in fact they are not, then even if you reject the homosexual lifestyle you are still giving Satan an enormous weapon to wield against you (since in such a case you would have committed yourself to having to confront an unnecessary temptation in your life... and we know full well that God will NOT protect somebody who unnecessarly puts themselves in the path of temptation).

Midnight,

I suppose that you would agree that when it comes to behavior as it relates to sex, this seems to be the behavior that is seen as unchangeable. I am not sure why this is. All other behaviors appear to be addressed as desired, undesired, changeable, modifiable, correctable but the sex thing seems to get people in a tizzy that causes the "wait a minute here now, this can't be changed"...

The question is always what is the behavior and how do we change it, not what is the behavior and why do we change it...adding why to the equation is only related to the motivation of the what and how. The question "why" when asked is nothing more than a motivator for or against change of the behavior.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by Marc Anthony

If we go down this road, we're chasing a red haerring. It doesn't matter. Catholics don't think homosexuals are sinful. We think homosexual acts are sinful. If we play the "Is homosexuality a choice card?" we'll get drowned out in the loud response of "NOOOOO!!!"

It doesn't matter though, because a homosexual inclination is not, and never was, a sin. Acting on that inclination is a sin, and this is the important thing.

Marc,

I believe that to be informed is to be forewarned. You have seen the "I can't help it"..."I didn't choose this"...well some people are trying to change because they don't like it and don't want it..a new website about this can be found here.

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/

The entire born this way has a site that has articles you can read, agree, disagree, and at least you have information to confront someone with, now hold on there is not total agreement on your proposition that you are fixed in your homosexual status..

just information

http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

[Dakota Roberts]

What is your medical degree in?

[Gabriel Serafin]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Homosexuality in my opinion is not fixed as a choice...
Your thoughts...

What about pedophiles, are they also born that way? And what about people who have propensity to lie, or to overeat. Is this something that should be celebrated and be proud about, or behaviors that need to be changed? Can a man who is also attracted to women other than his wife choose to be faithful to his wife and shun his adulterous attractions?

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts

What is your medical degree in?

Medicine

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by Gabriel Serafin

What about pedophiles, are they also born that way? And what about people who have propensity to lie, or to overeat. Is this something that should be celebrated and be proud about, or behaviors that need to be changed? Can a man who is also attracted to women other than his wife choose to be faithful to his wife and shun his adulterous attractions?

Gabe,

These are behaviors and the question is behavior fixed or changeable.

[RobbyS]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

The Meta Model of the mind stemming from General Semantics, NLP and Neurosemantics has progressed to the understanding that as humans we have the ability to be self reflective in our thinking. It is also understood that we can think about our thinking and register feelings about our feelings. We can in the dynamic of continually performing this self reflective behavior step outside the process and observe our thinking so that we come to recognize an executive function of the mind that has the ability to change the meaning of thoughts and feelings and thus behavior. When applied to the notion that homosexuals proclaim, that there is no choice in this regard, studies demonstrate similar findings as this….and are in conflict with the notion that "I did not choose this..I cannot change this"

Yarhouse has written a book on homosexuality and the Christian and concludes..

http://narth.com/docs/jonesyarhouse.html



This book may be of value in understanding what Christian researchers have to say...they do offer choice as a factor.


J Sex Marital Ther. 2011;37(5):404-27.
A longitudinal study of attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change.
Jones SL, Yarhouse MA.
Source
Office of Provost, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois 60187, USA. stanton.jones@wheaton.edu



Thoughts and beliefs when changed can cause a change in behavior.

J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jul;18(7):625-30.
Impact of environment upon gender identity and sexual orientation: a lesson for parents of children with intersex or gender confusion.
Lee PA, Houk CP.
Source
Department of Pediatrics, Penn State College of Medicine, The Milton S Hershey Medical Center, Hershey, PA, USA. plee@psu.edu




A strong external locus of control when imbedded into an internal locus of control can change thinking and behavior.


Christ Bioeth. 2004;10(2-3):117-35.
Sexual modification therapies: ethical controversies, philosophical disputes, and theological reflections.
Howsepian AA.
Source
Fresno Medical Education Program, University of California, San Francisco, California, USA.




Someone out there is thiniking that sexual orientation behavior can be changed dispelling the popular belief that I did not choose this and I cannot change. There is always choice.

Psychotherapy (Chic). 2010 Dec;47(4):500-11.
Facilitating congruence between religious beliefs and sexual identity with mindfulness.
Tan ES, Yarhouse MA.
Source
Eden Counseling Center, Norfolk, VA, USA. esntan@gmail.com




The core understanding of General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics is that thoughts are neutral until they are given meaning and in this dynamic as stated it mirrors the ability to self reflect in the Meta Model and discover the meaning, render that meaning neutral and get rid of phobias, fears, etc...and thus change behavior...

Homosexuality in my opinion is not fixed as a choice...

Your thoughts...

Why separate sexuality from other appetites? May homosexuality not be like an eating disorder, where certainly habits become compulsive even because of modeling or because of compensation for an unsatisfied need?

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by RobbyS

Why separate sexuality from other appetites? May homosexuality not be like an eating disorder, where certainly habits become compulsive even because of modeling or because of compensation for an unsatisfied need?

Robby,

You must eat to survive, it is a necssity. Sex is needed to advance society but in and of itself for the individual it is not a necessity.

[Dakota Roberts]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Medicine

And this also covers Psychiatry?