If abortion were criminalized should women getting an abortion and abortionists face prison time? - Page 4

Skeptic92 · #46 Jul 9, '12, 5:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForGood

I got pregnant at 17. My mom found out and told me it was an abortion or else. I was told not to tell the father. My own father didn't know either. My mother handed me the phone book opened to abortion clinics. She gave me $300 and the car keys the following Saturday.

Would I go to jail? Would my mother? The father of the baby? My father? The abortionist? The "counselor" or nurse? Would I go to jail 20 years later after telling my story?

Hard questions, perhaps even harder answers.

Let us put this in a hypothetical- Abortion is criminalised and defined as Homicide.

(I shall put this into American Law as I understand it, if it doesn't make sense I'll re-do it using British Law)

The Abortionist- Would likely be charged with 1st Degree Murder (as possession of the necessary medical equipment shows pre-mediation), possibly several counts if evidence of multiple abortions is found. Likely Sentence? Under the law as it stands Life imprisonment or the Death Penalty as the abortionist has been charged with multiple counts of first degree homicide

Your Mother (Please, don't take this the wrong way, I'm speaking strictly in legal terms) - Would have to be charged as a conspirator, with coercion and with the money being involved I am sure there is another charge for those that give money for those to commit homicide for them. Likely punishment? I could honestly see no way for a Judge to get around 25-life imprisonment with how the law stands.

Yourself- While the Actus Reus is clearly evident (the abortion), the mens rea is not due to your Mothers (abortion or else). Therefore it is likely instead of pursuing a case the Prosecution would seek a plea bargain, or no charges being filed once the facts of the case come to light. Punishment? Due to your Mothers coercion I highly doubt someone in a case like yours would face criminal charges. Unless however you have a really over zealous Prosecutor and Grand Jury but I can not see a Jury finding you guilty of homicide, and if they did I doubt a Judge would let the ruling stand.

Debora123 · #47 Jul 9, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaanne

How is it any more different than a woman who is forced to hold a gun or knife to her toddler, by her husband? Of course it would be difficult to "pin point ... culpability" - that is why we have juries and trials. But it would (and should) occur to ensure the innocent are given their day in court. Because they were certainly never given their day in life.

~Liza

It just isn't that simple in the case of abortion.

This is precisely why we don't consider women who have had abortions as killers/murderers like we would if she had pulled a Casey Anthony.

lizaanne · #48 Jul 9, '12, 5:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debora123

It just isn't that simple in the case of abortion.

This is precisely why we don't consider women who have had abortions as killers/murderers like we would if she had pulled a Casey Anthony.

Who is this "we" you speak of? I certainly don't feel that way. I don't see that there is any difference whatsoever. And I know someone personally who had an abortion, and a family member who assisted in them. And yes - both of these women who are dear to me, should have been held up to a court of law, had their case assessed, and gone to prison if it was deemed necessary.

There is NO difference between a woman who murders their toddler, or a woman who murders her unborn child, except for location of the child at the time of the murder. The rest is nothing but emotion and circumstances - all of which can be sorted out in the courtroom.

~Liza

Rence · #49 Jul 9, '12, 5:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debora123

It just isn't that simple in the case of abortion.

This is precisely why we don't consider women who have had abortions as killers/murderers like we would if she had pulled a Casey Anthony.

I agree with you Debora, because the fact is, if it was that simple, we wouldn't be having these debates because abortion would be labeled as murder, and both participants would be arrested and subjected to a trial.

Debora123 · #50 Jul 9, '12, 5:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaanne

Who is this "we" you speak of? I certainly don't feel that way. I don't see that there is any difference whatsoever. And I know someone personally who had an abortion, and a family member who assisted in them. And yes - both of these women who are dear to me, should have been held up to a court of law, had their case assessed, and gone to prison if it was deemed necessary.

There is NO difference between a woman who murders their toddler, or a woman who murders her unborn child, except for location of the child at the time of the murder. The rest is nothing but emotion and circumstances - all of which can be sorted out in the courtroom.

~Liza

Though the taking of an innocent human life is equally grave regardless of their age or stage in life, the Church doesn't consider these women to be killers/murderers. Perhaps it is mainly to do with culpability.

AthenaC · #51 Jul 9, '12, 5:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaanne

This is why a judge and jury would be necessary. No one is suggesting this would be the dark ages where women are dragged to the noose and hanged for their crime without benefit of trial. There are always circumstances of EVERY crime that need to be considered when passing out punishment.

However --- that being said - I still stand by my original comment, that there is no difference in the murder of the unborn and the murder of a toddler. But the circumstances may make the difference in sentencing. In both instances.

~Liza

Judges and juries are not magic wands. If you read some of my previous posts, I point out specifically that in some areas of criminal justice we cast a wide net (and catch innocent people as collateral damage) specifically because the level of evidence required to actually prove the prosecution's case wouldn't catch anyone. I spelled it out quite well (if I do say so myself) in post #19, #30, and #32.

livingwordunity · #52 Jul 13, '12, 4:59 pm

The question to be answered isn't whether a murder has taken place with an abortion but who is guilty of committing the murder.

Is the abortionist guilty of murder? Always the answer is yes.

Is the woman who goes in guilty of murder? It depends. But many times no due to mental, emotional, coercive pressures from others to do it, etc.

Contrary to what the left says, the truth is we who believe abortion should be illegal do have a heart.

aragonjohn1 · #53 Jul 13, '12, 7:29 pm

i agree with katy's stance the logical law should be restored

Rhuarc · #54 Jul 13, '12, 7:35 pm

I pose this question to all prochoicers out there, why is it that when someone murders a pregnant woman they get extra jail time just because of the fact that she was pregnant? Almost like killing two people no?

Seamus L · #55 Jul 13, '12, 7:52 pm

I believe the Abortionist should be charged with 1st Degree Murder. The woman's degree of culpability is alot more difficult to determine, but it could be anything from Not Guilty to 1st Degree Murder as well.

Pug · #56 Jul 13, '12, 9:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuarc

I pose this question to all prochoicers out there, why is it that when someone murders a pregnant woman they get extra jail time just because of the fact that she was pregnant? Almost like killing two people no?

First I am not pro-choice, but I am choosing to comment anyway. It would seem to me that some cultures, even if they don't respect the humanity or personhood of the unborn, might still have the idea that the father might consider it material damage to have lost an heir or some such. In other words, the extra jail time could be for damages in addition to the murder.

Petergee · #57 Jul 20, '12, 10:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debora123

the Church doesn't consider these women to be killers/murderers.

What? The Church has never said any such thing.

The Church teaches unequivocally that for a mother to deliberately procure an abortion is the mortal sin of murder. If anything, she teaches that it is worse than murdering a born child, because the unborn child is even more innocent. Abortion is the only type of murder which incurs automatic excommunication which can be lifted only by the Pope.

IF the mother was under duress from somebody else, her guilt is reduced depending on the amount of duress. She is not innocent unless the abortion was forcibly performed against her will.

However there are quite a few mothers who are not under duress, but knowingly, freely and deliberately consent to the abortion of their children.

andreashofer · #58 Jul 20, '12, 11:59 pm

Abortion is the only type of murder which incurs automatic excommunication which can be lifted only by the Pope.

Could you please provide me the source for this statement? Much appreciated. Thanks

Petergee · #59 Jul 21, '12, 2:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreashofer

Abortion is the only type of murder which incurs automatic excommunication which can be lifted only by the Pope.

Could you please provide me the source for this statement? Much appreciated. Thanks

see http://www.intratext.com/ixt/eng0017/_P55.HTM

Quote:

TITLE VI : OFFENCES AGAINST HUMAN LIFE AND LIBERTY (Cann. 1397 - 1398)

Can. 1397 One who commits murder, or who by force or by fraud abducts, imprisons, mutilates or gravely wounds a person, is to be punished, according to the gravity of the offence, with the deprivations and prohibitions mentioned in can. 1336. In the case of the murder of one of those persons mentioned in can. 1370, the offender is punished with the penalties there prescribed.

Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

see also e.g. http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article78.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm

http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/ar...03/011703d.htm

FaithBuild18 · #60 Jul 21, '12, 5:40 am

It is evident after reading some of the posts here that we as Catholics are still failing to understand that abortion IS murder. Every single excuse that has been made in this topic in an attempt to pardon the woman getting an abortion can be equally applied to any ordinary person committing an ordinary murder. BUT why is it that we are only trying to pardon the murderer and accomplice when it comes to abortions? We should not be separating abortion from murder, as they are one in the same.

It is true that a murderer may be either forced or heavily persuaded against his will into committing the murder. He will still be tried for murder. The same is true for abortion. And just as the case in murder, if abortion is outlawed each case will be handled by a court of law, and the sentencing will reflect that of the situation. But when it comes down to it an individual is free to choose even when threatened with their life, unless I suppose, in cases of physical restraint.

The law for abortion should mirror that of murder. In the standard scenario, the abortionist should get life, and the woman should get sentenced for being an accomplice and conspiring to commit murder. If a man is involved, then he too.

Enough with the hypocrisy! Do not parade yourself as being merciful when all you've done is abandoned justice. Nay, in order to show mercy, one must not forgo justice. Justice must be served, and mercy along with it.